Franchise standards (sandwich sizes)

Are there franchise standards that we can enforce to restaurants? For example, if you order a Giant Roast Beef sandwich Arbys, are they required to place the same amount of meat in Kansas City stores as they are in Minneapolis stores? I am sure every one can figure out why I ask(I’ll omit the gripe). Also, same topic. Is it considered false advertising when you see the photo of the Giant roast beef sandwich on the menu board, and it is literally as tall as it is high, with meat piled like a 6 story building, and the product you receive is not the same. I actually asked, “I’ll have what you’re advertising there, that looks good” and I pointed to the picture of the sandwich I wanted. Obviously I never actually receive anything remotely similar to what was advertised.

Note: I searched these pages and google, and false advertising and fast food, only seems to hit non related topics.

I don’t know about the suing for false advertising, I think it’s understood that you’re going to get crap and not nice advertising-style food.

But you never know. Whatever happened to those kids who sued because they got fat off of McDonald’s?

I thought that the franchise central HQ enforces a lot of the standards, at least by ensuring that all the consumables conform to those standards. If you run a McDonald’s and order a truckload of hamburgers, the patties will be the same size/shape/weight as any other McD’s would get.

Subway has all the meat presorted in little sheets of paper, etc. I assume that most places do something similar, standardizing lets them control costs, keep things consistent and so on. If you aren’t getting what you want, write to the franchisee and/or the “governing body” (McDonald’s Corp, for example) and complain.

If you’re just ticked that the sandwich on the billboard doesn’t look like the flattened BreadMcPuck you were actually served I doubt that there’s much you can do beyond getting your money back.

If your sandwich isn’t as “tall as it is high” then you have a defective sandwich. Forget Consumer Affairs, the FDA and BBB – contact a geometer!

Not as tall as it is high? Maybe the sub just tipped over? I know bored farm- and frat- boys and girls tip cows, but how bored do you have to be to tip roast beef?

Or did you mean some other kind of “high”? You might just have invented the solution to Mad Cow beef: “Happy Cow beef”
*“Happy Cow - because we don’t feed our cows ordinary grass.”
"Happy Cow - the burger joint with the emphasis on the ‘joint’. *

Sorry. I couldn’t resist. It’s been a long day.

You do have an excellent point. I can name one national roast beef chain that routinely shows snadwiches on posters and TV that bear ABSOLUTELY no resemblance to the product served, and where the amount of roast beef has variied greatly over the years. I’ve often felt that their advertising was completely fraudulent. To construct the sandwich they show, they’d have to provide 5 times as much beef.

Check this picture and tell me that you’ve ever actually been served anything like that at that chain. It’s not that one example: every single ad or picture of theirs is similarly inflated, if not more (and they used to be much worse). Should I “know better”? Heck no! I live in Boston, and have eaten at the original store that the chain is modeled on – and it did serve sandwiches that high. The national chain has simply brainwashed many of us into believing it’s impossible.

Since that original store is now gone (a long and illustrious career that only ended because the property it sat on became too valuable too keep using for a roast beef joint), I should say that the chain in question does make a tasty sandwich. I rarely eat them, though, because of the tremendous variation from visit to visit at the local franchises. Sometimes the meat is ample (though not “as pictured”) and sometimes it’s pathetic. If I’m going to eat fast food, there are other, less often disappointing choices.

I don’t know about the US but Britain has laws about food advertising. IIRC, you have to use the same amount of ingredients in your ads, you couldn’t use any additional ingredients and you couldn’t use any equipment that wasn’t in your stores. Still, there are tricks like carefully shovelling all the beef in a sandwich to the outside or using prime beef for your sandwiches. There was a case where I think it was McDonalds in Britain got sued for some of their ads when they were found to not conform to the standard.

I meant as Tall as it was Wide. you silly doper… :wally

I used to work at a chain called Wawa during high school in New Jersey, and at the very least, I can give you the Straight Dope on them.

The hoagies we made, were done with “preps.” All relatively freshly sliced meat and cheeses (American and Provolone came presliced off the truck, but the meats were done by hand and were not allowed to be put on sandwiches more than 24 hours after slicing). Meat preps all weighed as close to .09 lbs as a human could get it with a slicer. Junior size hoagies had one prep, shorti sized hoagies had 2 preps, and classic sized had 3. 2-foot hoagies had 9 preps. Cheese, if sliced by hand, was to be .03 lbs per prep. Meatball sandwhiches had 2, 4, and 6 meatballs for J, S, and C sizes respectively. There were rules for tomatoes and lettuce and all that stuff too, all handed down from Corporate HQ. I would assume many other corporate chains are similar. It maximizes profit on any product that your standard 7 dollar an hour employee is supposed to make for Jon Q. Sammicheater.

Of course, Wawa also gave a discount on food for employees that was equivalent to a slap in the face. Which led many employees to just take food and “write it off”. Which probably, in turn, will raise prices and/or cause even more strict guidelines on sandwich formation.

Sorry, but you have absolutely no standing to complain. The law in the US is that advertisers must show the same as they sell. If you show a bowl of chicken soup, the bowl shown must have the same amount as what is sold. Where the tricks come in are in presentation. Often the director of aforesaid soup commercial will partially fill the bowl with marbles, then ladle the soup on top. That keeps the meat and veggies showing for the camera. Using the same idea, Arby’s must sell the same amout of beef that they show, but by the time you get the sandwich, it has been smooshed and wrapped. The meat is measured by weight. If you take the meat and layer it lightly, and fluff-up the lettuce, and maybe hold the bun up with toothpicks, you can build a sandwicj just like the one in the ad. Standards are set by Corporate, and you get the same amount of meat at every Arby’s. If they get caught scimping, they could lose their franchise.

Chains have pretty strict standards for their sandwiches, and will even pull franchisees who try to ‘cheat’ on the recipe. That’s quite important to them, after all, since consistancy is a large part of why people go to these chains. (It sure isn’t the taste!)

Also, most of them are staffed by teenagers, so the food is generally made from pre-made, measured ingredients. The employees just assemble the sandwich according to the recipe. Usually, they try to avoid any steps involving measuring out ingredients – just too time-consuming for a fast-food place.
P.S. If you want to see the actual amount of meat that’s supposed to be in your sandwich, you can check on the “nutritional facts guide”. That’s usually posted on the wall somewhere, or available as a brochure. That will generally list the specific ounces of the various ingredients.

If you’re getting Arby’s sandwiches like I used to get, FX45, my heart goes out to you. You can’t rant enough, as far as I’m concerned. In the 1960s, their sandwiches were ample – not as huge as portrayed in their posters, but within the realm of reasonable hype: you could imagine they were the same sandwich.

You asked about national standards. Obviously that’s up to each corporate HQ. McD, BK and KFC have standardized portions, but prices vary by locality. Many chains advertise their prices nationally, but are less stringent on portion size. I’ve seen variations in the portion size listed on menus of the casual sit-down chains (I know a franchise that doesn’t list their chain’s usual 12 oz steak, but has a 10 oz “Manager’s special” every day at the same price. I wonder if HQ knows?)

Sadly, the only way to enforce any standards is to refuse to eat there, which is often a lose-lose, because the franchise owner or corporate HQ refuses to take the hint, until they have to close the restaurant. That almost happened to Arby’s once. If you want to start a letter campaign, I’d be your first follower.

In the late 70’s/early 80’s, their standard sandwich shrank to under 2 oz of meat (to “compete” with fast food burgers) and their big sandwich was under 4oz, like the after-cooking weight of a Whopper. A hot roast beef sandwich isn’t a burger, why should it have exactly the same amount of meat? They certainly didn’t cost the same? (According to the corporate website, they were $0.79 in 1964, when a McD burger was $0.15 in some areas, like Atlanta, where I lived)

It loked ludicrous before they shrank their bun and packaging, the meat could barely make 2 thin layers across the bun. There’s no physical way it could have been rearranged to produce the piled-high sandwiches in the posters of the era, even if pumped full of styrofoam. As a child, I’d always had to carefully re-layer the meat from its a dismal lump in the middle, just to get beef in every bite. As served, the beef was a bite and a half in from every edge.

Every Arby’s in Greater Boston (where the chain had gotten its idea) went out of business. It took 15 years of failed efforts before a few successfully re-seeded on I-495, about 20 miles outside of town, and I only noticed because my ex stopped at one once, and their jamocha shakes became my son’s favorite special treat. Otherwise, I would have have passed them by with a sneer and a sigh. Apparently a lot of other people felt the same: they completely revamped their marketing policies and image about 10 years ago. I noticed that sandwich sizes seem to have gone up since, at the one I see (in a huge food court in Nashua NH, where it faces stiff competition).

Corporate HQ may have realized they couldn’t cost-cut their way out of trouble. As they lost business, they cut more until they were charging for extra packets of their trademark “Horsey Sauce”, though one packet wouldn’t cover an entire bun. They’re more profitable now that they no longer put stingy limits on their patron’s enjoyment of their flagship products.

I’m no fan of how we Americans supersize everything, but why would I eat somewhere that only offers a mockery of their trademark specialty?

Other posters are correct about the legal standards, but I’ve always felt this standard was a crock - nationally institutionalized fraud, sustained by the power of the chains. A picture doesn’t show weight; it shows appearance - that’s the only claim it makes. Enforcing weight standards is quite prudent if weight claims are made. I’ve never seen a weight claim made for Arby’s- how can an unlisted weight be the enforceable standard? (if it’s enforced at all)

It’s like saying the photos shown by a dating service only need to show people with the same IQ as the actual members - though IQ isn’t listed in the profiles. Sure, numbers are easier to enforce, but that’s a a cop out. Can someone offer a cite of the law that sets standards for advertising images? I suspect that it’s just a vaguely worded, unenforceable “substantially similar” clause that no one even checks. A bowl of soup with marbles doesn’t have the same volume or weight as the bowl served, and I seriously doubt there’s a special soup exemption – and they don’t even give us the marbles. Imagine that McDonald’s tried doubling the apparent volume of their shakes this way. They wouldn’t dare - people actually bother to sue them; they’ve lost too many lawsuits in the past.

Of course, you wouldn’t hear about most such cases. They’d either be settled out of court (e.g. by a fine and consent decree with the state AG; a common trend in “consumer protection cases”) or McD would agree to reimburse consumers by distributing discount coupons - essentially a promotion, that comes out of their marketing budget, instead of a penalty. I’ve recieved those from many class action suits, where I wouldn’t do business with the defendant company again. The important thing is that the plaintiff or class action attorney collects their stiff fees.

I think the cookie-cutter franchise culture kills many promising businesses, mainstreaming them away from whatever made them unique in the first place (why *should8 a roast beef sandwich have the same amount of meat as a burger - they sure don’t cost the same!) and creating a bulk-savings mentality. One poster noted that a "portion was .09 lb at their company. How much do you want to bet that was originally 0.1 lb, until HQ calculated the saving so shaving off 10%?

At the Stage Deli on Broadway in NYC, every sandwich was at least as big as pictured – often very substantially bigger: they don’t want to disappoint. Somr of them literally looked like they would fall over. You admire the skill of the waitress in carrying them to the table, and had to disassemble them to fit them in your mouth. One would easily feed two hungry people, and everyone took home leftovers. I always made it a point to swing by when I was in town

They went franchise a few years back, using the same pictures on their posters and menus, but the franchise sandwiches were ‘normal sized’. One opened near me. While the original is almost always packed (even after cranking the prices up to around $13-20/plate), the franchise was empty except during lunch rush. The entie chain went belly-up within about 2 years, leaving only the original in NYC, and their first branch (which wasn’t franchise-style) in Atlantic City.

Oops - I corrected the bolding on this sentence before posting, but it didn’t register.

Can someone offer a cite of the law that sets standards for advertising images? I suspect that it’s just a vaguely worded, unenforceable “substantially similar” clause that no one even checks.

Seriously, I’d appreciate it. The more advertising I think about, the more this seems to be the case. I’d love to be proven wrong. I’d sleep better.

Depends what you mean by “we”…

As a former Arby’s sandwich maker, I can tell you that the meat portions are weighed for all of the sandwiches, and AFAIK, it’s the same for every Arby’s restaurant everywhere. The scientific accuracy of those measure varies, mostly based on how busy it is. If I had to make 40 sandwiches in 10 minutes, you might get 3.3 ounces of roast beef instead of 3.5.

The managers track how much meat is used versus how many sandwiches are sold, and significant differences are gonna get someone in trouble. If we sold sandwiches equivalent to 16 pounds of meat and I used 18 pounds of meat, I’d get fired (or at least assigned a different task).

But when you ask “are their standards we can enforce…”, it sounds like you;re asking whether you can force an Arby’s restaurant to ensure it’s sandwich contains the prescribed amount of beef, I think the answer is no. However, if you complain to the manager that your sandwich was too small (and had a legitimate grievance) I’d be surprised if you didn’t get another sandwich.

Former Arby’s manager here. Not anson2995’s though. It’s been quite a while, but the only actual weight I can remember is 1/2 lb of beef after cooking for a “Big Montana”. The Giant is something like 5oz, the Super 3.xoz, regular was 2oz I think, and the melt was like 1.5oz.

I’d be willing to bet that those weight standards are company wide, but YMMV depending on the person making the sandwich. I could knock out quite a few sanwiches/hr within a .2oz tolerance in a very short period.

It would certainly be misleading if the ads contained a greater weight of beef, but I don’t think that’s the case. The sandwich in the ad appears tobe pretty damn meaty, when in reality it’s mostly air due to the meticulously folded slices of beef.

Ever made a sandwich at home by just slapping the cold cuts on the bread flat? It looks pretty damn skimpy from the profile (unless you make 'em like I do :D). If you take the same cuts of meat and purposely fold the cuts in a way that allows the highest piling, it will look great. Until you take a bite out of it. Same thing with the sadwiches in the ads.

Sorry if this is just plain common sense that every single person here already knew, but how often am I going to be able to use that useless knowledge?

I can’t say I ever worked at arbys but I did work in a pizza franchise (Round Table). In many cases the weights and combinations of foods are part of patented/copyrighted recipies. Deviating from them in any meaningful way is usually a major violation of franchising agreements, and could result in revokation of franchise rights. All of our toppings were weighed out.

In another fun story I nailed a taco bell one day. They had those “mucho grande nachos” for a while that they advertised as “over a pound of nachos”. I was presented with a very light bag one time and I asked the cashier to please weigh my nachos with the little portion scale on the make line. It was 9.5 ounces. They happily piled up more toppings on it till it was probably about 18 ounces and sent me on my merry way. If you regularly order an item and it looks wrong or skimpy, never be afraid to call them on it. Different shifts often have variations in training or experience and can produce wildly different results.

This site gives information on Arby’s sandwiches. Note that the weight of a serving is given in the first column. And this same info is posted at every Arby’s I’ve ever been to.

You can also find links to similar information for about 20 major fast-food chains here. Every one I’ve looked at includes the weight of each menu item.
I agree with anson & drachilla: if you think your sandwich was undersized, complain to the manager. I’ve only had this happen twice, but both times they were quite apologetic, fixed the sandwich, and offered me refunds or free coupons for next time. And they were clearly concerned about it; they took the undersized sandwich back into the kitchen and I could hear them asking the workers there what had happened, who had made this, etc.

The second part of your statement is absolutely true, the first part night be subject to some discretion. Feel free to “call them on” any discrepancy you like, but realize that the people correcting the mistake may not have the scruples you might be hoping for.

“The customer is always right.” is fraught with errors and misperceptions. Some customers may insist that they gave you a $50 even though there’s not one in the drawer. One might be entitled to a replacement of a food item, but a common motto among the teens that usually staff fast food places is “the customer is always an a**hole”.

Keep this in mind when having food corrected, the circumstances will dictate the solution. I tend to let minor things slide, it happens. I know that if I cause enough of a fuss, someone that might be alone with my food might decide to mete out some of his own brand of justice.

I say these things not to be contrarian to the idea that one deserves what one has ordered, but rather to warn people that the horror stories that emanate from fast food places are usually in reference to a particularly picky or obnoxious customer. If you are percieved as such, you might experience the effects of such behavior. In a nutshell, if you’re the type of person that routinely returns food, chances are that you’ve probably had some rather unsavory things done to your food without your knowledge.

This seems to me to be a matter of common sense, if I can educate at least one person, then I’ve done an at least poor job of fighting ignorance.

As a one-time Arby’s aficionado, I’ve got quite a few anecdotes about these topics. Arby’s franchises are rare around here (though not as much so as Wendy’s, until recently), so I only really speak for a few stores. Now, one problem I haven’t had is being charged for sauces. Most stores I’ve been to have pumps for ketchup and both sauces, and they offer Arby’s and Horsey sauce for sale in bottles. I have experienced Wendy’s stores that charge for mayo, but, other than that, all toppings (except cheese and bacon) have been free at all fast food places I’ve been.

Sandwich size is another matter altogether. I guess it’s supposed to be consistent chain-wide, but in practice it’s not even consistent at each store. Sometimes a Giant sandwich is heaping and well-built; sometimes it’s very bad, with no beef visible from the outside even before squishing, and the meat piled up in the center. Arby’s wrappers have a listing of the ingredients in the sandwich on the inside; I know it includes the bun size, but I don’t remember if it includes a target weight for the meat.

On a related matter, does anyone know about price standards for franchises? It seems that small-town outlets have lower prices than urban outlets, and franchises in tourist areas have outrageously higher prices. Now, a major reason a chain might want to establish size standards (aside from legal concerns) is that sandwiches are depicted as having a certain size in the chain’s ads. People expect a sandwich to be at least roughly the same size as it is on TV or on the posters, even if they accept the fact that it won’t be as pretty. The same thing should go for prices. If you go to a Burger King expecting to be able to buy a Whopper for $1.99, and it costs $4.59, then you might feel slighted. In practice it doesn’t seem to be that way at all – the ad might say $1.99, but it might cost $2.39 in a high-rent urban location. Can they get away with this by invoking the ‘Valid only at participating locations’ disclaimer? (There’s a Burger King in Niagara Falls that has a sign under the menu: THIS IS NOT A PARTICIPATING LOCATION.)

I think you were pretty lucky if you didn’t wind up with a makeweight seven ounces of sputum on there.