Freedom Fries guy changes mind, opposes war. What does this mean for liberals?

We seem, for the time being, to have saved Social Security from death by privatization. We were on course to prevent the appointment of some really questionable judges and force the Republicans into a very uncomfortable political position until some “punch me in the gut” type Democrats stepped up to allow Bush all his nominations with the promise that we wouldn’t exercise our rights unless it was really really really important. We have fought a good fight on the nomination of a really inappropriate UN ambassador.

Bullshit. I chose sarcasm, profanity and refutation of his premise as faulty and (I suspect intentionally) offensive.

I’m crushed.

It would be ironic if it made any fucking sense.

Got no problem with it. Profanity isn’t murder. It isn’t nuclear war. It isn’t violence. It is an expression of extreme contempt and disagreement. Don’t be a pussy. If you want to tell me “fuck you,” do so. I’m more offended by your arguments in support of this OP than any profanity would ever bother me.

The problem, it seems to me, is that while Liberal complains about the abuse, he also seems to wallow in it.

I spent some time, way back in post #66 of this thread, attempting to make a measured and insult-free response to some issues directly related to his OP. Yet, while he has found the time to make 22 posts since then, not one of those posts attempts to address my arguments or offer a rebuttal to them.

Now it’s entirely possible that he felt that my observations were not erudite or relevant enough to warrant a response. I’m completely willing to concede that what i believe to be a measured response might not be taken the same way by others. But it seems to me that most of Liberal’s posts in this thread have been more concerned with playing up his role as a beleaguered iconoclast pummelled by the ignorant masses than with actually discussing the very topics that were allegedly the reason for this thread.

[QUOTE]

I will concede the point on preventing Social Security privatization. I think SS stills needs looking at and fixing and chooseing your own private account can be a viable option. I also think just about anything this admin preposes is a smoke screen for some unethical bullshit they want to slip into a pretty package.

I’m not sure but I think that might be one of** Liberal’s** points. You don’t get it. I’ll explain further if you like.

I have no problem with profanity either. When it serves as a substitute for rational arguement it’ serves no purpose other than a venting for the person useing it.

I actually just did. I hope you didn’t miss it.

I figured you did, but you hid it among so much other bullshit that it was pretty indirect and kind of hard to tell. i was encouraging you to express yourself more directly. Don’t be afraid!

Now, you offer to explain the points I am missing. Feel free, but try not to stray beyond Liberal’s words. If you have points you want to debate that you have interpolated, extrapolated or just plain thought of while you were reading what Liberal actually wrote, it would be beter to start a new thread.

Don’t hold out much hope for NPR. They’re under siege from the tighty righties for not having enough conservative bias in their reporting. The Bush appointee who heads the Corporation for Public Broadcasting has been making all kinds of efforts to make NPR knuckle down and be more like Fox News. And coincidentally, the CPB is planning to drastically cut its appropriation for NPR this year.

I’m already smelling the winds of change in some of NPR’s materials, and it ain’t a good smell.

I smelled that smell back in September-October of 2004. I have not renewed my membership since (and I have a pretty good collection of coffee mugs). I don’t listen anymore (my new car came with a CD player that can play MP3’s, so fuck NPR.

I do realize of course that it is probably the plan of the right to shift NPR’s message so that they lose support and can eventually be killed altogether, but I am not sure what else I can do. I can’t support the shifting of the message. I only hope that Air America develops into a reliable and viable alternative.

Back to what ‘Liberals’ were really screeching about from the beginning, namely OIL!!!
Slowly but surely it is becomming obvious that it all has been lies spewing forth from the White House.
Now that we have finally established that this war was not waged because of any of the officially stated reasons, can we now move to why Iraq really was invaded?

As I see it there are no more excuses and the painfuly obvious must be the truth.
Iraq was invaded in order to plunder.
Plunder in the modern sense; prestige harvested by the president, multi billion contracts by subcontracters inside Iraq for ‘rebuilding’, the arms industries got rid of their old bomb stocks and get contracts to produce more and probably someone has a few barrels of cheaply gained oil to sell.

Anyone got anything better to propose?
Please no more of the ‘Well, at least we got rid of a monster’ crap,
you didn’t get rid of him he got re-elected.

This is just for info. I’ve been deliberately staying out of this fight, but wanted to toss this quote in, on privatization:

Have a big self-pitying, stomping-out-of-the-room tantrum if you want, but don’t pretend I said something I didn’t. I never said you were incapable of changing your mind, I said my point about your hijacking would likely not be effective if history was any guide. Our exchange proves the point – as soon as I criticized your hijacking, you immediately labeled me as an irrational enemy, part of a gang of thugs who exists only to torment you.

A walk down memory lane:

I’ve started calling him a drama queen and I think it’s pretty fucking accurate.

Everything has to be about him. He’s instantly offended and never incorrect. Everyone who doesn’t think he’s both brilliant and correct is obviously out to get him. He (figuartively) stomps out of the room at the drop of a hat, typically to return later.

I wouldn’t be surprised if his political “philosophy” was nothing more than a way to drum up more drama. His nick change certainly was.

It’s the same thing with him every fucking time. I can’t believe peoples still give him attention.

-Joe

The most frustrating part for him in this thread must be his inability to post to it again, already having announced his departure.

Giraffe, thanks for taking on this long-festering problem.

Of course he can only offer his. However, his basic axia are so far removed from those of most other people that they do not provide a means for common-ground discussion: the underlying assumptions themselves must be debated or rejected if any discussion is to happen with him on almost all issues. And that gets really old: he knows that his underlying assumptions are different from almost everyone else’s, and we know that he knows that, and yet he keeps pushing them front and center.

Try a thought experiment. Personally, I don’t believe that logic is necessarily valid, that the universe necessarily corresponds to the principles of reason. (This is true, by the way, but is another discussion that I’m not having now). For the next week, every time you open a thread, imagine there’s a post from me about halfway down the first page making some oblique reference to how the OP is incorrect, given that the universe doesn’t necessarily correspond to the principles of reason. Imagine that these references are occasionally very insulting, suggesting that people are sheep if they believe so naively in the principles of reason.

I’m not saying to imagine that in every thread dealing with metaphysics. Open a thread about whether Michael Jackson is guilty? There’s a post there stating that we can’t believe in any evidence proffered by the court, because… Open a thread about Freedom Fries Guy? I’m right there, suggesting that you can’t show FFG ever said that FFG because… Looking at a thread about the use of tasers in police stops? Guess who’s got a post excoriating everyone for assuming that statistics on police stops have any sort of meaning, since everyone knows that cause-and-effect is just an illusion?

Seriously, try it out. See how old it gets, how fast.

Now imagine that every time I make one of those (sincere, from-my-heart) posts, half a dozen people jump on it as either easily dismissed, bizarrely intriguing, or simply unignorably outrageous. Whatever the thread you were reading was about, it now is about whether the universe operates according to the principles of logic and reason.

We’ve all got our own nutty views of the cosmos. Most of us are capable of recognizing them, and setting them aside for the purposes of discussion. For the purposes of discussion (and many other purposes, I should add), I act as if the principles of logic and reason hold sway in our universe. Lib very rarely will set Libertarianism/Propertarianism to the side for the purposes of discussion. And that’s what’s so frustrating.

I agree, and I’ve stopped debating him on these issues. The problem is that so many people don’t stop, either because they’ve never seen the ontological “proof of God” before, or because they lack the self-discipline to ignore yet another argument about whether taxation really equals robbery. And so the discussion, no matter what it was about, is now about his pet issue.

Daniel

Hey! Liberal’s grace and calm nobility in this thread have touched me.

Turns out it was bad touch.

. . .

The point when I realized that Liberal had zero interest in actual discussions of his philosophy - and the point when I started to suspect he doesn’t really have any genuine thought underlying it - was when I saw this quote of his.

In that thread, he blamed his refusal to engage in honest discussions (and his constant hijacks to boot) on Dewey Cheatem Undhow; I’m sure he’s willing to blame someone else for it now. But when you consider that the core of his political “philosophy” is the paranoid and apparently a priori belief that everyone who disagrees with him is opposed to the pursuit of happiness, you get a feeling that the whole thing is just a house of cards. That’s my personal guess as to why he becomes so viciously personal when people disagree with him; the mindless adherence of the fanatic or the zealot turns to mindless violence when it’s questioned.

It’s telling, incidentally, that he started this thread by repeating sound bites about modern American liberalism that me might as well have picked up from Bill O’Reilly. I’m beginning to feel that his knowledge and thought on the subject of American politics is just as fragile as his grasp of political theory.

I understand the optimism, though. He has a unique knack for arguing graciously and rationally just often enough to make one think that this thread is going to be the one that does justice to his reputation as a thinker and a debater.

axes

Sorry. But it really jumped out at me. :slight_smile:

Nope, “axia” as a pluralization of “axiom.”

axioms” then.

“Axiom” is definitely a better fit for the sentence than “axis”, though.

I haven’t been here that long, but I’ve already heard you say this twice in 2 different threads. And I’ve already observed that it’s not just a few of the same people. It is in fact a lot of people telling you this, and many of them seem to me to be level-headed and respected posters. Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.

By George, you’re right. I’ve got no idea where I got the idea that “axia” was the correct plural; thanks!

Daniel

It did. He started with a faulty premise. Got called on it. Was dismayed that we did not bow to his wisdom. Cast aspersions. Played the martyr card. Was defended by a sycophant that did not catch the irony. Then stomped off.

I would say that this thread did justice to his reputation as a debator and thinker.

I’m not level-headed. I can’t keep a flower pot up there to save my life.