This thread has put me in mind of something else.
after spending the day I work I come back to see how far this thread has degenerated. It started out fairly interesting. I have a couple of observations and questions.
I am still new to the SDMB and still getting used to how things work and the basic guidelines official and otherwise. Several have accused Liberal of consistantly hijacking threads and making them all about him and his political and philosophical views. I haven’t experienced that but haven’t been in a lot of threads with him.
My questions are these,
When commenting on any issue whose political and philosophical views do you expect **Liberal ** to give? Don't we all respond with our own views? Isn't that to be expected?
Isn't it also part of the purpose here to post alternative views and to challenge views that you don't agree with? How is it being an attention whore to challenge views you don't agree with by posting your own?
Personnally If I had already explored all the differences between my views and any other posters several times I would be unlikely to engage them in a debate of any length again.
What is it you expect Liberal to do when he makes a post and four or five people jump all over him, not just with disagreements but with personnel attacks and ridicule? If you don’t want him to “hijack” a thread then don’t respond. If you’ve got a point to make make it. If the best you have is “fuck you asshole” you only display how feeble you are.
As for this OP. I don't see where **Lib** blamed the war on the liberals or democrats. Suggesting that any criticism of the style or tactics of the Dems and how to improve it, is blameing them for anything, seems exactly like the republicans suggesting that critisizing the president is unpatriotic and not supporting our wonderful troops. It's just stupid. If **Lib** is critisizeing the Dems exclusively {which I very much doubt} then you might have a point.
For those of you who opposed the war from the beginning, then good for you. Me too. The fact remains that most democrats and republicans who had second thoughts did what was politically cowardly and expedient in allowing this president to take us to where we are now. We evidently didn’t oppose the war effectively enough to prevent it or even win an election during that war. THat means as citizens of a goverment for the people and by the people we share in the responsibility of what our country is doing. No matter how bad that tastes.
If I fail at a task I set out for myself is it more useful to examine my strategy and tactics and continue to improve my method, or just blame my failure on someone else and feel self righteous in doing so?
Would you keep a screen name that you felt was a valid representation of your views even if many people disagreed?
I considered Hermes Trismegistres, but modesty forbade.
The truth is there, but people are willfully ignorant. The problem is that too many people suffer from the delusion that God told them to vote for Bush, and they’re gonna continue to stick their fingers in their ears and yell “la, la, la” when confronted with the truth. You can lead a horse to water…
And what exactly the fuck does Giraffe have to do with ME?
I disagree with your suggestion, that’s all. You want the Democratic party to adopt the same wildly unsuccessful ideology that’s keeping the Libertarian party in the single digits? And that’s gonna save us? Oh, great idea there.:rolleyes:
When did I make fun of the word “liberty”?
(I totally agree with you about Dean, though - that guy’s fucking up.)
Neither do I. The only thing I’ve blamed Democrats for is allowing Republicans to steal from them their words and ideals. And the only thing I’ve advocated in that regard is that Democrats take them back.
Well, I’d say that I valued your respect until you posted that. The last interaction I had with you was when I agreed to honor your request that I not to ask you any more questions about Almost Famous on account of it reminding you of your website. It was, in other words, a show of respect. Perhaps instead of reading what Giraffe, Hentor, Guin, et all have said I said, you should read what I in fact said. None of it should offend you. Andros has managed to maintain his respect for me, and frankly, this whole business of holding a man’s respect hostage until he grovels with remorse before the usual gang of thugs is beastial in its conception. If you don’t respect me now, then you never did. I have said nothing new.
Then you received the wrong shipment, my friend. I placed the blame for the Iraq War squarely on George W Bush. What I blamed the liberals for was allowing him to use their words and their ideals against them. A man who will not guard his house shouldn’t be pissed when a neighbor comes by and advises him to install a lock.
Be that as it may, I have grown a thick skin. Whenever I’m piled-on like this, it is always the same gaggle of nabobs. They repeat the same nonsense and lies about me over and over as though that will make it true. When I prove them wrong, they change their accusation, as Giraffe did. When I defend myself, they call it hijacking. When I defend my friends, they call it martyrdom. Poly isn’t here bashing me. Tris isn’t here bashing me. Sentient isn’t here bashing me. Dio isn’t here bashing me. There are thousands of members who are not in here telling me that I’ve insulted Democrats. Just the few. The same few as always. I submit that no manner of communication will placate them. If I said, “You guys are great,” they would call me a misogynist. Just as I can provide plenty of cites to prove Giraffe wrong, I can provide plenty of cites in which I’ve communicated just fine, have expressed support and care for fellow members, and have been well received. I refuse to fall prey to this reputation by acclamation. Ask those whom I’ve comforted whether I can communicate. Ask those whom I’ve rescued from financial ruin whether I can communicate. Ask those who’ve forwarded e-mails to me because this gang is too mean and intimidating to them whether I can communicate. Try being on the receiving end of a ten-man gang-bang some time, and then give me lessons on how to communicate with them. Nothing in the OP is offensive to liberals. Taking offense was their conscious and deliberate choice.
Since I won’t be returning to post in this thread, I ask that it be closed.
If any members wish to discuss what Democrats might do to take the tenets of liberalism back from Republicans, feel free to open a new thread.
Taking your ball and going home?
Don’t we have to burp you and change your nappy first?
For sake of clarity here, let me just say that I do not agree with Liberal’s OP, I am not here to mock or make fun of him.
He and I may not see eye to eye politcally, but I see no reason to stoop down to the playground. It may be the Pit and all that, but calling him a baby doesn’t make sense to me.
People aren’t calling you a martyr because you defend your friends, or yourself. It’s because of HOW you do it.
But you go on believing we have a vendetta against you. Whatever makes sense to you in your own little world.
There’s nothing wrong with being a libertarian, certainly he isn’t alone in that regard. But the Democratic party is not libertarian, most of us would leave in a heartbeat if it became so. To continually chastise Democrats for not subscribing to his particular political philosophy is what continually amazes me. I’m proud to associate myself with FDR, LBJ, Carter, Humphrey, Clinton, and Ted Kennedy. The Democratic Party is not for libertarians and likely never will be. There are more productive uses of time than to wish for what is never going to happen.
cosmosdan, I read a description recently of Democrats over the past few years that said, essentially, that Democrats were people who, when confronted by someone who punches them in the gut, would take a step closer to them and say, “I see your point.” That makes me think of you.
When the construction of the point to be debated is so false and misleading, validating it is the last thing to do. When the Swift Boat guys said, Kerry was a coward and shirker during the war, so he is bad for our national defense, you probably said, “No, he’s good for our national defense.”
Here the construction is "The Freedom Fries guy was a quiet man of conscience who saw the error of his ways. He is absolved of blame for the war because he was only one man. Now his one voice is more powerful than a thousand screeching Kennedys. On the other hand, all liberals are responsible for the war because we made fun of words like freedom (the example of a liberal who Liberal lionized, Al Gore, notwithstanding), and we use government to reward failure and punish success, and declare Wars on This and That, and etc and etc”.
In sum, one conservative who was about the biggest shithead ever is better and more powerful and more effective and just a swell guy than all the liberals (who screech and reward failure) because he realized that facing families of dead soldiers made him feel a strange bad feeling in his tummy.
Yes, there are elements worth discussing. Yes, I would agree with selected elements of the screed. But validating it by standing back and saying, “hmmm, I like what you’ve done here” is just taking a punch in the gut and saying, “I see your point.” I reject the construction outright, and invite him to try again. (You do have to ask why he started this in the pit, however, if his intention was to open up some sort of thoughtful discourse. In conjuction with the opening salvo of “a thousand screeching Kennedys” I found my answer.)
The funny thing is, I am doing exactly what Liberal says liberals should do. I am preventing an opponent from appropriating and twisting words around, and standing up forcefully for my principles. Perhaps you should heed his words, and stop being a hand-wringing, principle compromiser.
Mockingbird
Oh my, How rewarding to discover such cleverness as this.
I am quite fond of sarcasm myself. I try to control how I dish it out because with sarcasm it’s easy to cross the line from being humorous to being a jackass.
Don’t feel bad kids. I’m not always successful ay staying on the humous side either.
So several people jump in this thread, not to discuss the OP but to attack Liberal , and when he decides to not participate, you accuse him of being childish. How school yard bully of you.
I think several people made valid points and interesting arguements but those of you who just wanted to piss in the sandbox for your own entertaiment put a stop to that. And you refer to him as childish. It’s funny in a “you’re full of crap” way.
How hard is it numbnuts? If you don’t like Liberal or his views then why come post in a thread he started?
What I can't quite figure out is why so many people seem sure that by disagreeing with the liberal Democrats choice of tactics and believing that liberals have gotten off course from the true meaning of the word, **Liberal** is somehow viciously attacking them and blaming all of Americas problems on them.
It really doesn’t make sense. Especially when he very clearly states that he is not doing it and blames GWB in clear language.
Since someone pointed out that the Dems are the only viable opposition to the GOP then perhaps what Liberal and myself are hoping for is an effective
opposition to the powers that be. PLease point out one significant victory for the Democratic party lately. Point out one thing that shows clear progress. Please, really. I’d love to see one.
After the election I went to some Democracy for America meetings here in Nashville. I wanted to be a part of some meaningful opposition to this dangerous and criminal administration. I saw many people who were galvanized by their desire to make a contribution to their country and their oppostion to the war and the Bush admin in general. I heard several people stand up and ask if we could do something more meaningful than sling political rhetoric and pat each other on the back while discussing how awful the Bushies are. Nothing happened and attendance dwindled.
Believe me I want to support some viable opposition to the Bush Admin and the clone that will follow in 2008. I’d like it to be because I actually respect and believe in the party and it’s candidate rather than the “Anybody but Bush” campaign that failed in 2004.
Democrats? I thought you blamed the liberals, and as we have learned, in Libspeak, when you say liberals, you are really talking about libertarians. It’s no wonder people give you so much grief, Lib, it’s impossible to follow your argument without a program.
I heard a discription of Howard Dean as a loudmouth asshole. That makes me think of you. Actually thats a but if a joke. I just don’t understand your point here. At least this post displays some rational thought process. What a relief.
Here again. How and why you draw these conclusions based on what I’ve posted escapes me. It seems to be based largely on assumption and your own prejudice. Your assumption is completely wrong.
If you thought the basis of the OP was bogus then you might have said that in your first post instead of the ridiculous crap you spewed. You’re not obligated to use profanity just because it’s in the pit.
You read a lot into Lib’s post that wasn’t there, and you seem to have missed what was plainly there. I don’t blame Lib for that
Here in your self righteous condecending manner, you miss the point, again
In my other post I invited anyone to point out something genuinely effective the liberal Democrats have done. PLaese do. I’d love to admit I’m wrong here.
I don’t agree, or even understand your logic here. I see others found a way to agree with certain points and call Lib to task for the ones they didn’t. You and others chose sarcasm and porfanity. Thats your perogative. I don’t find it admirable or useful.
I also wondered why it was in the pit. Given what happened in the thread and that **Liberal ** seemed to expect it, it doesn’t seem to wise. Kinda like walking through a high crime neighborhood with money hanging out of your pockets. That doesn’t mean the mugger is justified when he says “Hey man he was asking for it”
I’d say the “forceful” way you stand up for your principles is already a compromise of them. Ironic ain’t it? Here again you draw a quick unfounded conclusion about me based on what. I think is the perfect time for the appropriate use of FUCK YOU I mentioned earlier. See how that works?
Actually thats a** bit of** a joke.