For what it’s worth, I do.
Well, obviously there are nominal Jews (and, God knows, Christians) who don’t take religion very seriously, but people who want to don traditional religious garb and pray at the Wall don’t sound like they belong in that category.
Are you serious?
What’s next, saying Evangelical Christians should be able to demand entrance into the most sacred Lakota ceremonies where they can start praying aloud as much as they want?
Completely not true.
The mosque appears to be owned by the government. What grounds would you have for kicking out Jews who were worshipping quietly?
I do like a man who lays out all his facts.
So what?
You made a baseless assertion. I myself, being an atheist, woman, and not kosher, go to services and wear kippot and tallit when I do. I’ve prayed at the Western Wall. To claim that someone who doesn’t keep kosher or doesnt observe as the orthodoxy is a nominal Jew demonstrates a lack of understanding of Judaism.
What facts do you want?
I think it’s pretty clear. “Freedom of religion” doesn’t give you the right to come into someone else’s place of worship and try to institute your own rules.
They are probably Reform.
An analogy
Orthodox=Catholic
Conservative Jews=Methodists
Reform Jews=Unatarians
Catholics don’t go into Protestant churches screaming that Protestants are going to hell because they don’t believe in trans-substantiation.
Baptists don’t burn Methodists because they sprinkle water on babies instead of dunking adults into the river to babtise them.
They leave each other alone, and most Jewish denominations do, too.
I may be confused, but I think you got Tony’s claim exactly backwards.
Actually, those will do nicely. You have now educated me to the point where I realize that an atheist woman will go to services wearing kippot and tallit, which I will add to my large collection of facts filed under “If I live to be a thousand, I will never understand people.” However, I didn’t say that any Jew who doesn’t keep kosher is a nominal Jew, I said that there are nominal Jews who don’t keep kosher, and although you have made me aware of your existence, you have not convinced me that you are typical, or that it is silly to wonder why they ignore the prohibition I cited from the Torah.
It should stay the way it is, it has worked for most , not just orthodox…its just this small group who wants to create attention and power for themselves, …if they cater to this woman and her small group it will offend alot of people
Heh, thanks. It may not have been the opposite of what I said, but it was at least the converse.
What are you talking about?
It most certainly is not run by the government or even by Israeli Arabs. Those that control it aren’t Israelis, but have worked with the Israeli government to ensure that all groups get their time to pray at the various locations without stepping on each others toes. It’s run by the Waqf and that’s the way the Israeli government has wanted it ever since the Israel’s one-eyed King ordered some idiot soldiers to remove the Israeli flags they’d stupidly erected on it.
Perhaps you can ask the Israeli government why they wouldn’t allow Muslims to enter synagogues, lay their carpets on the ground and start reciting the Shahada.
For that matter, if I and some other Muslims were to do that in one of the major Synagogues in Providence, what do you think would happen to that.
Once again, you fail at analogies.
The Western Wall, as near as I can tell, is a public site used for public prayers. People engage in individual ceremonies there as well, e.g., bar mitzvahs, and nobody is, as your analogy ineptly suggests, seeking to disrupt individual ceremonies.
But the Western Wall is a public institution in Israel. So let’s try to make your analogy apply: let’s say there’s a national park in the US with a site sacred to the Lakota. They have rituals there often, and when they reserve that site, nobody tries to disrupt them.
But some new-agers believe that it’s a sacred site, and they want to hold their own ritual there.
Now we’ve got something similar going on: a group that wants to limit religious practice at a public site according to strict tradition, and another group that wants to engage in serious worship at the site according to modern concepts of religion.
Now that we’ve fixed your analogy, would I support the new-agers in their efforts to conduct their own, non-disruptive rituals at the site?
Absolutely I’d support them.
Ok. Let’s try that analogy. Keep in mind that unlike the Lakota in your hypothetical, Orthodox Jews conduct rituals and pray at the site not “often” but 24/7. Literally. How does your analogy work then?
Non-disruptive according to whom? What if it is disruptive according to the Lakota, and the Lakota conduct rituals there 24/7/365. Would you still support the new-agers?
Did I do something to piss you off, because I have no idea who you are yet you seem to have a certain amount of hostility.
For starters, it’s extremely up for debate as to whether it’s in Israel or not and it’s not controlled or run by the Israeli government but by the Waqf which also ran it when the area was controlled by King Hussein.
It’s not viewed by the Palestinians or the Israelis as a “public site” where anyone who wants to pray can pray whenever and wherever they want.
Can I ask if you’ve ever visited Israel/Palestine or the people that live there, because you seem to be applying some American standards to a country where they really don’t apply.
As to why the Palestinians are hostile to the idea of their conquerers decided to disrespect their religious leaders and decide to make deliberately provocative gestures, well, all I can say is that if you need to ask that question, forget the question of your understanding of the history of the region, you really don’t understand the human condition.
Similarly, if I and my father had walked into Touro Synagogue(I’ll assume you understand the importance of), which was quite near where we lived and was officially “a public site” and knelt down on prayer rugs, took out a pair of turbahs and started praying, even silently, we would have pissed off quite a few people and been thrown out immediately.
Admittedly the analogy isn’t terribly good since the Jews of Newport have never been remotely treated as badly by Muslims as the Palestinians of East Jerusalem have been by Jews.
You can’t be disrupted by quiet prayer unless you allow yourself to be disrupted. Or are a power-hungry, selfish religious fanatic who thinks his personal vision of Judaism is the only correct and legal one.
Yep! You made offensively stupid analogies, over and over and over. It’s your main method of argument.
Nor did I say it was.
No, you may not ask, because I won’t indulge you in your other favorite argumentative technique, the gratuitous ad hominem. You’re the one who brought up a shitty analogy based on American religions, so you’re hardly in a position to object to my trying to fix your analogy using those same American religions.
Stop right there: I don’t need to ask that question, because it has fuckall to do with my point. Yay! Another ad hominem diverted!