Nicholas Anelka (a French footballer playing in Britain) has caused controversy today by performing “la quenelle” after scoring a goal.
For those who’ve not seen it, “la quenelle” is a kind of reverse roman salute, where the right hand is placed across the chest and the left arm is extended downwards. It’s increasingly popular with some sections of French youth.
A lot of people are saying “la quenelle” is an overtly anti-semitic statement (cf. this video which shows it being performed at a lot of Jewish sites); others have said it’s a statement to show disaffection with the political elite (which may or may not include an aspect of anti-semitism). It seems to be most popular in immigrant communities of north African origin, which plays into the anti-jewish claims (or maybe those communities tend to be most disaffected with the ruling elite?)
The person most associated with it is a French comedian called Dieudonné, and some of his recent acts certainly seem very anti-semitic, but many people also claim that’s just a slur the Govt have put in place to discredit an increasingly popular anti-establishment voice
So what’s the straight dope on “la quenelle”? Just a “f*ck you” gesture by cross young people, or another manifestation of european anti-semitism?
From a quick google, it is clear that it did not originate as a reverse nazi salute.
Rather it is a gesture accompanied by the words “jusqu’à la”.
Meaning “a/my hand up your arse up to here”.
There are even shirts that have centimeters on the sleeve, to show how far exactly it goes up.
I’m wondering, Wallenstein, is the “reverse roman salute” yours or did you copy it? I would never have associated le quenelle with a roman salute, but I do associate it with a related Spanish gesture. The one time I saw that gesture performed irl, the performer was a man in his 50s, no Jews were involved (unless he happens to be one, which I didn’t ask) and it had the same meaning as this gesture.
The Spanish gesture means, depending on circumstances, “may you be ass-raped”, “you just got ass-raped” or “we’re getting ass-raped here”. My French coworker, after apologizing for his gesture, confirmed that in his case it happened to have the third meaning (and we were, indeed, being metaphorically ass-raped). He never indicated that the French gesture was supposed to involve a proctologist. If the parallel we drew between both gestures is correct, then directing a quenelle to a Jewish site is indeed anti-semitic, but the gesture itself is not, not any more than any corte de mangas is anti-British whereas that particular one I linked was very much so.
Delving a bit further into this, it is a bit more complicated than just the gesture as “fuck you” and revolves around a black French comedian, Dieudonné.
Dieudonné made the gesture a bit af a gimmick during his shows. Always a bit controversial, his first run in with the law was when an extreme right-wing organistation took him to court for being anti-white, racist and anti-christian.
In 2003 he did a caricature of a muslim extremist and a bit later a caricature of a zionist colonist. That is when the shit hit the fan.
Dieudonné became the target of a relentless hate campaign accusing him of anti-semitism.
I don’t know all the details yet, hopefully someone French will enlighten us further, but I can see how la quenelle could have become a gesture of defiance directed at jews because of the hounding of Dieudonné.
Over the years it might well have become an anti-semitic gesture.
Frenchie here. I have no idea what this quenelle stuff is all about - but then I’m really out of touch and don’t follow the news very much at all. Sorry.
As for Dieudo’, one reason he’s “the target of a relentless hate campaign accusing him of anti-semitism” is, indeed, that these days he regularly makes sly or not-so-sly anti-semitic statements (which he, along with his buddy Alain Soral, takes care to merely style as “antizionist”, but they ain’t fooling no one). To the point that his former friend and partner in comedy Elie Semoun, who happens to be Jewish, doesn’t want anything to do with him any more.
Dieudonné has also become an open supporter (and supported) of the Front National. If y’all haven’t heard about our much beloved Front, they’re slightly to the right of Pat Buchanan when it comes to race relations and immigration. Not sure where Pat lands on the subject of Jews, but safe to say Frontist militants probably land due east of him as well :).
AFAIK Dieudonné fundamentally disagrees with pretty much all the Front stands for (all the moreso that he still harbours deep resentment over French colonialism, while the Front is naturally A-OK with it ; as self-respecting racist, nationalist, Nazi wannabes are wont to)… except when it comes to Da Choos, a shared hatred of which was apparently enough to build solid bridges.
So, to get back on track, if the popularity of la quenelle in the French cultural zeitgeist really does stem from his stand-up shows (a fact which, again, I can’t speak to), or it is performed as a sort of show of support or “tribal signal” if you will, then yeah, I wouldn’t expect the gesture to be full of implicit brotherly love for the Jews.
Patrick Buchanan is a racist, sexist, anti-Semitic human piece of filth who should have long been denied access to any public forum. He’s a modern day Charles Lindberg and a would be Father Coughlin. He’s a fascist. He believes that women should go back to the kitchen; that darkies were happier before the ebil civil rights movement hurt them; that Jews lie about the holocaust and the Catholic church the source of all moral authority in the world and that Nixon was not only a good president but a great one. I grew up reading his horrid rants in the New York Post. I have read his miserable autobiography.
I am not French and I have no idea what the OP is writing about. But comparing anyone to Buchanan should be seen as a grave insult.
I haven’t found anything ‘incriminating’ prior to this 2003 “sketch” he did while in a talk show with a fellow French comedian.
This is what set off death threats, boycotting his shows etc etc. This is 2003-2004, we have had these episodes on this board as well, where any criticism of Israel was immediatly called out to be anti-semitism.
Critising Israel was Taboo. The reactions to this sketch have been totally over the top.
For a while he tried to defend himself by making that distinction, but even more he wanted to address that taboo. He’s done that in his own way. He didn’t apologise he did “fuck you” bits in his shows.
Having looked at some of it I must say that, as time progressed, he became more and more virulent in this. Up and beyond a point where it isn’t satire or breaking taboos anymore.
From everything I have seen in this thread and found on the Net, it would seem that the gesture is not inherently anti-semitic. All the references to “reverse Nazi salute” and similar theories appear to be along the lines of the myriad explanations of the Peace Symbol by people who really did not have a clue as to its actual origins.
As to Dieudonné, I have no idea whether he is the French Lenny Bruce or whether he is simply one more in a long line of haters of Jews. It is possible that his repeated use of the gesture will result in an association with anti-semitism in the future, but it clearly did not have its origins there. (Much like “cracker” starting out as an insult to (some) poor whites based on a fancied association with them “cracking” jokes, tall tales, and boasts, and then, when the etymology was lost, picking up a race-based folk etymology based on a supposed “cracking” of whips against slaves.)
We have? Could you cite an example where any criticism of Israel was called out to be anti-Semitic on this board? Claims that this happens have been made many times on this board, but out of every time I’ve asked for an actual example of this happening only one example, by brazil84, in the pit has ever been produced.
You could just have said something along the lines of “Say, did you know that in 2007 he became associated with Robert Faurisson, a French Holocaust denier?”
And I would have said: “No, my dear Ibn, I didn’t. Thanks for pointing that out.”
“I did know he has become quite close with the Front National.” “As I said, he has gone way beyond the point of satire and braking taboos.”
I was aware of the debate about Dieudonné, but for a long time wouldn’t have known if the criticisms were based in fact or mere PC overreaction. Until last year when I searched on youtube, not so much his shows but rather statements and interviews. There’s zero doubt he’s antisemit, and even actively (not only in his shows)and harshly so. All the usual stuff, plus some of his own, like the idea that slave traders were mostly Jews.
As for the “quenelle”, I didn’t even know it existed until last week. But given the source, I have zero doubt about the way I should interpret it. I’m sure he’s truthful when he says it’s an anti-establishment “salute”. You just have to consider which people he thinks are making up the “establishment”.
Also, given that the “quenelle salute” is done in front of synagogues, Jewish schools, etc… even in Auschwitz, it seems to me that people doing it aren’t fooled, either (although I’m sure there are some naive ones too).
Do note, however, that I didn’t compare Dieudonné to Buchanan, merely the average Front National enthusiast.
Dieudonné, as I said, is a different breed of consumed-by-hatred - if anything, I’d compare him more with Louis Farrakhan. Much like the good Imam, at the heart of Dieudonné’s vision of the world lie angry racial us-and-them stuff ; a weird *sui generi *notion of Islam ; plus good old anti-Semitism for seasoning. And everything he says, does or learns gets distorted by that prism.
All the more tragic that beyond this he’s a genuinely smart, witty and funny guy. But these days he puts all that intelligence in the service of being a cranky cunt with a martyr complex. One who, capital sin, just isn’t *funny *any more - his act is 90% bitter rant now, kind of like Georges Carlin’s worst years but without the humanity. I sincerely hope he gets to hear the pop some day, when his head dislodges from his ass.