French grammar questions....

Factual Questions
1

Well, it’s getting to be the end of the semester again, so I’m sitting here writing discertations in French. Like last semester, this has come to signifiy a coming to terms with how much French I don’t know.

To add to that, I spent 18 or so hours on a bus to nowhere this weekend and was only four people whose mother tongue was not Chinese. As a result, I had a lot of time to reflect on things, one of them being a small list of things I, even after a year in France, do not understand about French.

I know there are numerous dopers who speak French, so I wanted to put the questions up here. I’m sure I’m going to add to them throughout the day/week.

They are:

  • Is there any difference between “Je suis navré” and “Je suis désolé”? Moreover, in English when someone says something like “I feel like crap today,” we tend (at least in the US) to say, “I’m sorry.” I’ve gotten some funny looks when I do the same in French (especially when a friend of mine was explaining that her cramps were worse than usual this month, I said that I was sorry, and she looked at me like “What do you have to do with my cramps?” This happens when I talk to most anyone, though, whose first language isn’t English.)

  • Putting “au” in front of words like tant, avant, etc. to form “autant” and “auparavant”: is there any difference? They seem to be used the same.

  • (this one is related to this question that I asked last week) Are things like merde and putain really cuss words? Or, better yet, are there words that can’t be said on tv? I have always equated merde with “shit” and putain with “fuck” yet I hear them on the television all the time. Even when I watch the Simpsons and Friends dubbed in French they say that, which they surely don’t say in English.

  • How does one say, “to feel guilty”? I mean in the sense that someones giving you a guilt-trip and you say, “Don’t try to make me feel guilty.” When I think of it in English, the word “guilty” doesn’t signify culpability, rather something like, “Don’t try to make me feel bad or sorry.”

  • Are *bien *and bon sometimes interchangeable. When I want to reply, “That’s good,” I often don’t know if I’m supposed to say C’est bien or C’est bon, yet, then again, it often seems that the two are interchangeable.

  • What is the distinction between là and ici. I used to think that former meant “there” and the latter meant “here.” That was until I came to France and realized that people say, for instance, “Je suis là” when someone is looking for them. So, it obviously means both (though my French-English dictionary only mentions “there” for là). For instance, “That one there” would be Celui-là, while “I’m here” is as I’ve already mentioned.

I think that’s it for the moment. I’m sure some of these questions will go along with what Clairobscur said the last time I asked about French, that foreigners want to have rules where there aren’t really strict rules, so there is no sure answer.

If anyone would like to ask other grammar questions about French, no problem. I’m sure any clarification would help.

2

[QUOTE=gitfiddle]

  • Is there any difference between “Je suis navré” and “Je suis désolé”? Moreover, in English when someone says something like “I feel like crap today,” we tend (at least in the US) to say, “I’m sorry.” I’ve gotten some funny looks when I do the same in French (especially when a friend of mine was explaining that her cramps were worse than usual this month, I said that I was sorry, and she looked at me like “What do you have to do with my cramps?” This happens when I talk to most anyone, though, whose first language isn’t English.)
    [/quote]

I believe that “Je suis désolé” implies that you are responsible for what happened, while “Je suis navré” just means that you feel bad or want to show sympathy. It would have been the right thing to say to your friend about her cramps.

“Autant” does not mean the same thing as “tant”; if you’ve found a sentence where both could be used, I’d like to hear it. On the other hand, I think that “auparavant” can usually be replaced by “avant”, but it doesn’t sound as good.
“Il est né dix années auparavant.”
“Il est né dix années avant.”
The first sentence says that he is born ten years before what was mentioned in the preceding sentence. The second one could mean the same thing, but you’re not sure; I might answer something like “avant quoi?”

I’ll leave this one to a French poster (clairobscur, maybe?)

Well, I believe that “N’essaie pas de me faire sentir coupable” would work, but I don’t think that’s exactly what you’re looking for. If I find something better, I’ll post it.

In this case you should answer “c’est bien”. These words aren’t quite interchangeable (although people will understand what you’re saying even if you say the wrong one), but I can’t really tell you when to say one or the other. Maybe someone will come with a formal rule.

Indeed, people say “je suis là” where they could have said “je suis ici”. But in the same vein, in English, you could say “are you there?” instead of “are you here?” It’s the same thing.

Yes, when a language is your first language, you don’t necessarily know all its grammar rules, you just go with what looks or sounds the “best” and it’s usually right, because that’s what you’ve always read or heard. We can still help somewhat, though, and maybe other speakers of French as a second language will come where we can’t help.

3

[QUOTE=severus]
In this case you should answer “c’est bien”. These words aren’t quite interchangeable (although people will understand what you’re saying even if you say the wrong one), but I can’t really tell you when to say one or the other. Maybe someone will come with a formal rule.
[/QUOTE]

I found this site helpful for the bien v. bon distinction.

The Doctor

4

Come to think of it, I don’t know why I equated the two…

I think that’s a very loose relation though. For instance, if I were in a class and the teacher called my name, I would never say, “I’m there.” “Here” is always where I am. A teacher could jokingly say, “Are you out there?” if it’s a big class, but most of the time he/she would “Is [so-and-so] here?”

In general, I’ve found that people don’t speak English as their mother tongue have some difficulty between here/there and this/that in English. It’s a distinction that I don’t think is made the same way in other languages.

5

[QUOTE=gitfiddle]
Well, it’s getting to be the end of the semester again, so I’m sitting here writing discertations in French. Like last semester, this has come to signifiy a coming to terms with how much French I don’t know.

To add to that, I spent 18 or so hours on a bus to nowhere this weekend and was only four people whose mother tongue was not Chinese. As a result, I had a lot of time to reflect on things, one of them being a small list of things I, even after a year in France, do not understand about French.

I know there are numerous dopers who speak French, so I wanted to put the questions up here. I’m sure I’m going to add to them throughout the day/week.

They are:

  • Is there any difference between “Je suis navré” and “Je suis désolé”? Moreover, in English when someone says something like “I feel like crap today,” we tend (at least in the US) to say, “I’m sorry.” I’ve gotten some funny looks when I do the same in French (especially when a friend of mine was explaining that her cramps were worse than usual this month, I said that I was sorry, and she looked at me like “What do you have to do with my cramps?” This happens when I talk to most anyone, though, whose first language isn’t English.)

  • Putting “au” in front of words like tant, avant, etc. to form “autant” and “auparavant”: is there any difference? They seem to be used the same.

  • (this one is related to this question that I asked last week) Are things like merde and putain really cuss words? Or, better yet, are there words that can’t be said on tv? I have always equated merde with “shit” and putain with “fuck” yet I hear them on the television all the time. Even when I watch the Simpsons and Friends dubbed in French they say that, which they surely don’t say in English.

  • How does one say, “to feel guilty”? I mean in the sense that someones giving you a guilt-trip and you say, “Don’t try to make me feel guilty.” When I think of it in English, the word “guilty” doesn’t signify culpability, rather something like, “Don’t try to make me feel bad or sorry.”

  • Are *bien *and bon sometimes interchangeable. When I want to reply, “That’s good,” I often don’t know if I’m supposed to say C’est bien or C’est bon, yet, then again, it often seems that the two are interchangeable.

  • What is the distinction between là and ici. I used to think that former meant “there” and the latter meant “here.” That was until I came to France and realized that people say, for instance, “Je suis là” when someone is looking for them. So, it obviously means both (though my French-English dictionary only mentions “there” for là). For instance, “That one there” would be Celui-là, while “I’m here” is as I’ve already mentioned.

I think that’s it for the moment. I’m sure some of these questions will go along with what Clairobscur said the last time I asked about French, that foreigners want to have rules where there aren’t really strict rules, so there is no sure answer.

If anyone would like to ask other grammar questions about French, no problem. I’m sure any clarification would help.
[/QUOTE]

Gitfiddle, in addition to being a know-it-all big-mouth expert on everything, I am also fluent in French since it is my mother tongue. I also use it daily since I am a professional English-French, French English translator and simultaneous interpreter. And I will be pleased to help you. You can also email me questions if you like.

Oh la la! Que de problèmes, mon cher (ou ma chère? – j’ignore votre sexe.)

Most of your difficulties seem to stem from an assumption that French or any other language obeys rules of logic. Most of your dificulties arise from an assumption that language is a science when it is an art form. Most of your difficulties are rooted in the assumption that if you can just learn a single rule, you will get the hang of it.

Now, if I were to ask you the difference is between “stem from” “arise from” and “rooted in” in English, and when you use one or the other, the best you could tell me by way of answer is “just listen and practice your English and it will eventually sink in”.

“Je suis navré” means “I am heartbroken” and is generally reserved for when you really mean it. For example, the sigh of a child’s teddy bear in a plane wreck is “navrant”. So is watching a dear friend die.

“Désolé” also means the same, but it can also be used in a lighter, less sincere way, such as a store clerk telling you they are “désolé” because they are sold out of an item that was on sale. The clerk is not really desolated with grief. It is like a British clerk saying “terribly sorry”.

About saying you are sorry when people say they feel like crap. What did you actually say in French? Did you say “Mes excuses” or something like that? If so, no wonder they were confused. English uses “sorry” for both emotions: repentance for a harm done by the speaker and sympathy with the plight of another. French distinguishes between the two. So do not excuse yourself for cramps that you did not cause.

Try something that shows your empathy like: “Ooo, quel domage” “Oui, je comprends votre douleur”. Or try the verb "compatiser’ which means to empathize. Je compatise avec votre douleur. Or even just :Mon pauvre (name). In more formal cases like the death of someone, use “mes condoléances.”

Cuss words have no exact equivalent. Merde and putain are close to “shit” and “fuck”, but only close. The reason you hear them on French TV is that most countries are less uptight about what you can say on TV than the US. For example, English-Canadian TV uses “fuck” quite liberally, especially on speciality channels.

For guilt-tripping, try the verb “culpabiliser” as in “Ce n’est pas de ma faute… cessez de me culpabiliser!” More informally, you might say “Vous n’allez pas me faire passer ça sur le dos!”

“Bien” is an adverb and “C’est bien” would be used more when you are referring to something that was accomplished. It would have more the meaning of “well done”, “way to go” or “good show” in English. Looking at a beautifully set table you might say “C’est bien” because you are referring to the action and effort of setting the table. The food would be “bon” because you are referring to its taste. BUT THESE RULES ARE NOT SET IN CONCRETE. NO LINGUISTIC RULES ARE!

“Je suis là” instead of “je suis ici” does not make strict sense, but since when does any language make sense? Why do English people say: "I am over here(over what???).

A word of advice. You sound like you are doing very well in French. Congratulations. But the more you stop and reason, the more you will confuse yourself. Stop being so full of logic. Wade right in an practise, practise, practise.

You do not need to be super smart to learn a language. There are many cases of persons with limited IQs in Europe who are nontheless capable of speaking two or three languages because they grew up using them. Use it, use it, use it and it will sink in.

6

[QUOTE=gitfiddle]
I’m sure some of these questions will go along with what Clairobscur said the last time I asked about French, that foreigners want to have rules where there aren’t really strict rules, so there is no sure answer.
.
[/QUOTE]

I said that in relation with a question about social interactions, not about grammar. Actually, there are quite often relatively precise grammar rules though they aren’t necessarily followed. The problem is that native speakers (and that would include me) generally don’t know them. I, like many others, just know that something “sounds right” or doesn’t, but why? I couldn’t tell to save my life, though in many cases, someone actually interested in grammar could.

I’ll try to give some answers, though :

As far as I know, not much, though in theory “je suis navré” might imply more strongly that you’re not responsible, and that there’s nothing you can do (“je suis navré, mais je ne peux pas vous laisser entrer”). Also “je suis navré” is an higher level of language and not commonly used.

It’s perfectly acceptable to say “je suis désolé”, but indeed it somehow became quite common that people answer by saying that it’s not your fault anyway, so why would you be sorry? It’s not a genuine expression of surprise at your expressed concern, since people say “désolé” in such situations all the time. Just a way to tell you “Don’t feel bad” or “Let’s forget about this, that’s my problem” or maybe even “I know that actually you couldn’t care less, so stop pretending you do”.

These are cuss words, though relatively common ones. But indeed, there’s no much in the way of rules regarding using cuss words on TV.

Apart from “se sentir coupable” ou “culpabiliser”, there no other way to say this I can think of right now. It’s possible that “cupabilité” in french as a broader range and a less strong meaning than “culpability” in english, but I couldn’t tell.

7

Wow. That’s very kind of you.

There are days…Then again, there are those occassions when I find myself thinking *“dessous…dessus?” It’s the same goddamn word! * Or the days where I tell someone that I’m going to cut my horses, and go see the hair at the Hippodrome.

I would say my comprehension oral and written is very good, but I’ve got a ways to go in the speaking/writing department.

At least I long ago got rid of that horrible American accent…

8

[QUOTE=gitfiddle]
Wow. That’s very kind of you.

There are days…Then again, there are those occassions when I find myself thinking *“dessous…dessus?” It’s the same goddamn word! * Or the days where I tell someone that I’m going to cut my horses, and go see the hair at the Hippodrome.

I would say my comprehension oral and written is very good, but I’ve got a ways to go in the speaking/writing department.

At least I long ago got rid of that horrible American accent…
[/QUOTE]

There is nothing wrong with an accent, gitfiddle. In fact, everybody on Earth speaks with an accent. It simply means the flavour of the speech in your part of the world. But for some reason, many Americans get upset if you tell them they speak with a New England accent or whatever. It is almost as if you were telling them they can’t speak right.

Then there are foreign accents, i.e., those based on the fact that the language was learned later in life after your mother tongue. Here again, there is nothing wrong with a foreign accent. Many famous people have spoken with a foreign accent. Napoleon spoke all his life with an Italian accent because his mother tongue was Italian, not French! Mary Queen of Scotts spoke English with a heavy French accent. And think about Desi Arnaz (multi-millionaire success) Maurice Chavalier, Arnold Schwarznegger, Henry kissinger, Dr. Ruth, etc. etc.

Accents are cute and exotic. Get out there and speak, speak speak. Damn the mistakes. You will make tons and tons of mistakes at first and tell people “fou” when you mean “feu”. So what??? Did you walk perfectly the first time you stood up or did you stumble and fall a lot?

9

valteron, I agree with you by and large. I was just joking around, however, to a certain extent accents do matter. I remember one night, there was an American professor (I don’t remember his name) on one of the million French roundtable discussion shows. He was on with Jane Fonda, who actually speaks pretty good French. This guy proffessor was speaking French, but it was so obvious that he had never made any effort to correct his pronunciation, and his accent was horrible. It seemed like even Jane Fonda was trying not to let him talk because he was so atrocious to listen to.

I used to worry about my accent because I was stigmatized by American media saying that everyone in the world would hate me because I was from the US. So, even before I could speak French, I practiced my pronunciation, because even if I had trouble I wanted to show I was making an effort, so that people wouldn’t beat me over the head with hard, day-old bagettes.

I think, to a certain extent, people don’t take you seriously if you have to pronounced an accent. I remember my best friend telling me how annoyed he was by girls telling him his argentinan girlfriend was “adorable.” He said everyone talked to her like she was a pet or a four year old kid. When I told that same story to my girlfriend, who’s from Taiwan, she looked at me seriously and said, “That’s exactly what you do to me every time I speak English.” Which I suddenly realized was true, and I still still think she’s unbearably cute when she speaks English (she does the exact same thing to me when I try to speak Chinese).

I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m just saying that there are some aspects of life where it’s better not to have an accent, especially if you want to be taken seriously. As for me, I did realize that people weren’t going to spit on me and tell me to go back to America if I didn’t speak perfect French. Most people were flattered that I was taking the time to learn it. So, I lightened up.

Not to mention, I still have a hell of a time with words that have, say, more than two r’s. Especially if they start with r.

10

Interesting thread.

Welcome to the SD, Valteron. I hope you stay around - there are often threads about French language on here and you really seem to know your stuff.

“to feel guilty” - perhaps this could be rendered by “avoir honte” (literally, “to be ashamed”.) Depending on the context, of course.

11

I tend to agree with gitfiddle about accents. Jane Birkin sounds “exotic” when speaking French, and Serge Gainsbourg definitely sounded exotic when speaking English, but when you’re learning a language, surely it’s good at least to aim for something relatively authentic, and it’s good to feel you’re getting it right. When my wife’s speaking French, and I hear a French person ask her what part of Paris she’s from, I see her light up with pleasure (she’s from Ireland).

12

Can depuis always be used like “since”? I’m talking about a phrase like, “Since I’m not a doctor, I can’t operate on your grandmother,” or, “Since it’s been so cold recently, the cat’s frozen in the basement.”?

13

[QUOTE=gitfiddle]
Can depuis always be used like “since”? I’m talking about a phrase like, “Since I’m not a doctor, I can’t operate on your grandmother,” or, “Since it’s been so cold recently, the cat’s frozen in the basement.”?
[/QUOTE]

No, when you say “since” in a sense similar to “because” you have to use “puisque”. “Depuis” means “since” but in the sense of “since such-and-such time”.

14

Is there any other possible usage of “depuis”?

15

Not that I know of. Why?

16

I just felt like there was…just wanted to be sure.

17

[QUOTE=gitfiddle]
Is there any other possible usage of “depuis”?
[/QUOTE]

Yes. Though it usually refers to time, it can be used to refer to a spatial distance : “Depuis la manche jusqu’à la frontière suisse, ce n’était qu’une tranchée ininterrompue”. So, it can sometimes be translated by “from” too.

But it can never be used to translate “since” when this word refers to a consequence (as opposed to a duration), as in your doctor example. Or at least, I can’t think of a situtation when it can.

18

Though, isn’t it interesting that “puis” appears in:

depuis - “since” or “from” (a point in space)
puisque - “since”, “because of”
puis - then

The concept of “then” appears embedded in all of them.

I wondered if “puisque” used to be “puis que” in old French - “then that”. I can sort of see how “since” could be rendered by the concept of “then that”.

clairobscur - in my four years in France, I never could find out if there’s a word for “sober”, as in, not intoxicated. The nearest I got was “pas ivre” or “pas soul”, or even “ajunct” - but I believe that is more of a medical term for “fasted”, right?

How about “assume”, in English? I know “assumer” is becoming more and more popular, as a sort of Franglais borrowing (“assumer” really means “to assume” (a responsibility) in French.) Is there a simple translation for “to assume”, in correct French? I believe “assumer” is still considered colloquial, when used in the Anglo sense of “to make an assumption”. I know of circumlocutions like “partir du principe que…” but no simple word.

Same thing with “realiser”, in the sense of “se rendre compte”. Do you know of any single word for this, other than “realiser” which I’m convinced is Franglais?

19

I’m not a native speaker of French, but I lived in France for three years, and I have a master’s degree and an ABD in French Linguistics. I do consider myself both fluent and comfortable in French.

Some of my own responses to things that I have read in this thread to date:

Translation is rarely (if ever) an exact science. Words and phrases frequently change meanings depending on the context and the speaker. While it seems easy to say that là=“there” while ci (or a variant like ici) means “here”, that works only from an English perspective. It’s perfectly normal for a French speaker on a telephone to say “Je suis là” where we would expect to hear “I’m here” in English. As a more concrete example, I learned that “là-bas” meant “over there” when I was first learning French. When I was actually in France, I had to point out something that was uphill from where we were standing, and I used the term “là-bas” to do so. I was immediately corrected, with the instruction that “bas” meant “down”, while “haut” meant “up”, so I should have said “là-haut” in that particular context. From a French perspective, this makes perfect sense, but it is not something that is typically taught in French classes in the US.

The French don’t always understand their own language. In this, I am referring to the average Frenchperson, who typically does not speak any language other than French, and I can state the same thing about the majority of English-speakers in the world, regardless of nationality. (Apologies to Clairobscure, since I specifically mean to exclude anyone who truly understands the differences between the languages here.)

As an example: I used to teach a correspondence course in French through a US university, which was designed to meet the foreign language requirement for specific degree programs. One of my students was an American woman who had married a French man, and who was living outside of Paris, and who was trying to earn an American Bachelor degree through correspondance education. I taught a second-semester French course, which included past tenses (imparfait and passé composé) as well as the subjunctive mood for verbs.

This student’s husband specifically told her that the subjunctive was no longer used in French, since most French people didn’t really understand it, and tended to avoid it. When she e-mailed me this question, I immediately realized that her husband was referring to subjective subjunctive situations–where either the subjunctive or the objective mood could be used with the verb, depending on the user’s point of view. (As an example, the translation of a sentence like “I am looking for someone who can solve this problem.” If the verb solve is in the subjunctive mood, the speaker does not know the identity of the person they are looking for, and realizes that such a person may not even exist. If the verb is in the objective mood, then the speaker knows exactly who they are looking for and that such a person exists.) In cases like this, it is true that the speaker will typically not use the subjunctive mood, even if they do not know who they are looking for.

Nonetheless, the subjunctive mood is alive and well in modern French, because there are many places where it must be used for the purposes of grammaticality alone. The sentence “Je veux que tu ailles au marché” is grammatically more acceptable than “Je veux que tu vas au marché” for the majority of native French speakers, just because vouloir que must be followed by the subjunctive mood in standard French.

The best advice I can offer is to Read, Read, and Read even more printed and current versions of the language. As you read, use the process of “analyse du texte” to analyze the text you are reading, to better understand why the author chose to use the words and grammar that appear in the text. Whenever I read anything in French, from stories published in Le Monde to text that appears on French media websites to novels that I read in French (I LOVE Zola and Hugo!), I take time to analyze how the sentences are structures, and what vocabulary the writer chose to use, which in turn helps me understand better how the language works.

20

[QUOTE=DarrenS]
clairobscur - in my four years in France, I never could find out if there’s a word for “sober”, as in, not intoxicated. The nearest I got was “pas ivre” or “pas soul”, or even “ajunct” - but I believe that is more of a medical term for “fasted”, right?
[/quote]

It’s written “à jeun”. Yes, it does also mean “who fasted”, but it’s usually understood to mean sober. “Sobre” exists too, but I think it properly means “having a temperent lifestyle” rather than “not drunk”.

S’apercevoir?