French origins of English?

[UncleFred]

I’m not sure this is the right forum or that there is even a factual answer, but let me explain;

In High School I had a really arrogant French teacher who insisted that Americans “owed a lot to France” for having provided a lot of the ‘English Language’

I didn’t think it was right at the time, but my grade was hanging by a thread and arguing wouldn’t have helped. I would love to find authoritatively that his statement simply isn’t so.

All I can marshall off hand is;

• Much of English and French derive from Latin.
• Yeah, the Normans invaded England, but Normandy wasn’t really part of any “French nation”, and the Normans if anything were descendants of Vikings who invaded what is now part of France.

I admit my grasp of history may be a tad shaky, but if correct I don’t see how anyone could claim the develpment of English owes a lot to French.

High School was a long time ago but I’ve been busy.

[Ludovic]

My thought is nearly the opposite: English that sticks as closely as it can to its Anglo-Saxon roots usually makes more sense, gets to the point better, and is just more poetic than sentences that get bogged down in too much legalistic-sounding French-derived verbiage.

[Exapno_Mapcase]

The simple answer is that “English owes a lot to the French.”

When William conquered England he installed French nobles in control of every area. French was the court language and every aspiring English gentleman had to learn French for the next couple of centuries. There are huge long lists of words that exist in pairs as descendents of French and Angle-Saxon terms. Most words in the professions, the long, formal words, are inherited through the French.

So yes, under any definition of the term, French was incredibly important to the development of modern English. It’s the reason why English has a larger vocabulary and more synonyms than most languages. We have a dual heritage that is unlike almost any other.

I hate to be snarky but your grasp of history isn’t “shaky” as much as “nonexistent.”

[Terminus_Est]

I’ve always liked how Sir Walter Scott put it, in Ivanhoe:

“Why, how call you those grunting brutes running about on their four legs?” demanded Wamba.

“Swine, fool, swine,” said the herd, “every fool knows that.”

“And swine is good Saxon,” said the Jester; “but how call you the sow when she is flayed, and drawn, and quartered, and hung up by the heels, like a traitor?”

“Pork,” answered the swine-herd.

“I am very glad every fool knows that too,” said Wamba, “and pork, I think, is good Norman-French; and so when the brute lives, and is in the charge of a Saxon slave, she goes by her Saxon name; but becomes a Norman, and is called pork, when she is carried to the Castle-hall to feast among the nobles; what dost thou think of this, friend Gurth, ha?”

“It is but too true doctrine, friend Wamba, however it got into thy fool’s pate.”

“Nay, I can tell you more,” said Wamba, in the same tone; there is old Alderman Ox continues to hold his Saxon epithet, while he is under the charge of serfs and bondsmen such as thou, but becomes Beef, a fiery French gallant, when he arrives before the worshipful jaws that are destined to consume him. Mynheer Calf, too, becomes Monsieur de Veau in the like manner; he is Saxon when he requires tendance, and takes a Norman name when he becomes matter of enjoyment."

[Serenata67]

It’s not so much that the Normans weren’t part of the French nation, but part of the French language family. They contributed a lot to our language. Cooking words: most cooking words are French in origin, even using the word “poultry” as opposed to “chicken” when cooking, or “pork” instead of “pig.” Our Justice system’s language is almost entirely from French (Judiciary, attorney, etc.). There’s much morethey contributed.

Even if you want to say “it all came from Latin,” the French are the ones that did a substantial part of bringing that Latin to the British people. Er, I mean Angles, Saxons, Welsh. The Britons (Brits, Brittish, etc.) are from an area called Brittany… hmm… could that be somewhere in France?

[Tamerlane]

@UncleFred

• Yeah, the Normans invaded England, but Normandy wasn’t really part of any “French nation”, and the Normans if anything were descendants of Vikings who invaded what is now part of France.

Though Normandy was an allodial possession, not held in right of the French crown until ~1200, it was very much a part of France and the Vikings that gave it its name very quickly assimilated into northern French society ( at any rate the bulk of the Norman populace were certainly not descended directly from the Norse - they were simply conquered ). By 1066 the Norman dynasty was very much a French dynasty and the northern French dialect was the court language from then until the reign of Edward I - over 200 years.

[KneadToKnow]

@UncleFred

• Much of English and French derive from Latin
  …
  I admit my grasp of history may be a tad shaky, but if correct I don’t see how anyone could claim the develpment of English owes a lot to French.

You’re mistaken. While English essentially retains its Germanic grammar, it’s vocabulary increased by, IIRC, threefold as a result of all the French words that were added after 1066. One list.

The history of English is long and complex, but if you want to see what an impact French had on it, do this simple thing: read this text in Old English (pre-1066) and tell me honestly you have any idea what it’s saying. Then read this text in post-1066 Middle English and tell me it’s not an entirely different experience:

This carpenter hadde newe a wyf,
Which that he lovede moore than his lyf;
Of eighteteene yeer she was of age.
Jalous he was, and heeld hire narwe in cage,
For she was wylde and yong, and he was old,
And demed hymself, been lik a cokewold.
He knew nat Catoun, for his wit was rude,
That bad man sholde wedde his simylitude.
Men sholde wedden after hire estaat,
For youth and elde is often at debaat.
But sith that he was fallen in the snare,
Her moste endure, as oother folk, his care.

[KneadToKnow]

I meant to say in response to “Much of English and French derive from Latin” that a significant number of the Latin-derived words in English are derived via French.

[Dr.Drake]

@Serenata67

Even if you want to say “it all came from Latin,” the French are the ones that did a substantial part of bringing that Latin to the British people. Er, I mean Angles, Saxons, Welsh. The Britons (Brits, Brittish, etc.) are from an area called Brittany… hmm… could that be somewhere in France?

Wait, what? Brittany was settled by Britons from Britain. Before that, Armorica (Gaulish are- “before” + mor- “sea”) was occupied by the Gauls, their distant cousins, the same people who occupied most of what is now France.

The Britons, who spoke the language ancestral to Welsh, Cornish, and Breton, shared the island with Latin-speakers for several hundred years long before the Angles and Saxons left the continent and long before the French existed as such. The Welsh language has quite a lot of direct influence from Latin, and only a little from French. English is the opposite: quite a lot of direct influence from Norman French, and only a little directly from Latin, mostly religious terms early on and enlightenment neo-Latin scientific words later.

As far as “Well, they spoke French but they weren’t from France,” there wasn’t really a French nation as such in the year 1066.

[Tamerlane]

@Dr.Drake

As far as “Well, they spoke French but they weren’t from France,” there wasn’t really a French nation as such in the year 1066.

Depends what you mean by “nation.” Nationalism as such is a pretty recent phenomenon.

But there was unequivocally a crown of France in 1066 to which the duchy of Normandy was vassal and the Normans were part of the greater northern French political milieu, completely entwined with their neighbors ( one of whom was their king ). It is common to deride the early Capetians as shadow kings of a sort ( up until about Philip I who began the process of extending crown lands and reestablishing royal power ), but the throne seems to have still commanded enormous prestige and respect.

[Dr.Drake]

@Tamerlane

Depends what you mean by “nation.” Nationalism as such is a pretty recent phenomenon.

I meant in the sense of the modern nation-state. The French nation in terms of the French ethnos was clearly around in 1066 (though not yet extended to Southern France or Lower Brittany), and the French political nation was as you describe.

[Kobal2]

Let’s just say that we French gave your language a certain je-ne-sais-quoi that it lacked

OK, joke aside, yes, the English language is absolutely rife with French loanwords, or derivations/bastardizations of French loanwords.

Well, I say French, but back in 1066 there was no French - there was Normand (a mixture of tongue of Oïl and Norse, though light on the Norse), tongue of Oïl (which was to become the root of Middle French) and tongue of Occ in the south (heavily based on Latin and similar Romance languages)… and about a bajillion dialects derived from those. That mess was only consolidated into a singular French language much later.

Oh, and yes, of course there was such a thing as a kingdom of France in 1066 - it’s very existence was the root of the Hundred Years War a few centuries later. The French kings were of the opinion that since Normandy was their vassal, then any conquest by a Norman lord was ipso facto their vassals as well. Transitive vassalage, as it were. The Plantagenets (being unrelated to the original Norman rulers) thought different . Hilarity ensued.

[Huerta88]

England got conquered/occupied a lot, as happens to small island nations until they develop an awesome Navy. Norman French played its role for a long time including up till now, for legal and ceremonial stuff (have a look at the Queen’s seal – File:UK Royal Coat of Arms.svg - Wikipedia).

An interesting question, one I have no idea how to address, is how much “Norman French” was influenced by the language of the Norse occupiers of northwest France, which would (I presume) feed back into various Norse/Germanic languages, some not un-related to Anglo-Saxon roots that had already hit Britain . . . .

Lots of intermingling there, and lots of room for debate. As potentially heated as the debate over who were “true” Celts – Galicians? Bretons?

[Captain_Amazing]

@Kobal2

The Plantagenets (being unrelated to the original Norman rulers) thought different .

Just to nitpick, but the Plantagenets weren’t unrelated to the original Norman rulers. The English Plantagenets were descended from Henry II, who’s mother was the granddaughter of William the Conqueror. Of course, on their father’s side, the Plantagenets were descended from the Counts of Anjou, who also were vassals of the French crown.

[chowder]

@KneadToKnow

You’re mistaken. While English essentially retains its Germanic grammar, it’s vocabulary increased by, IIRC, threefold as a result of all the French words that were added after 1066. One list.

The history of English is long and complex, but if you want to see what an impact French had on it, do this simple thing: read this text in Old English (pre-1066) and tell me honestly you have any idea what it’s saying. Then read this text in post-1066 Middle English and tell me it’s not an entirely different experience:

I think he’s saying he’s got a new wife and man is she hawt!

[Kobal2]

@Captain_Amazing

Just to nitpick, but the Plantagenets weren’t unrelated to the original Norman rulers. The English Plantagenets were descended from Henry II, who’s mother was the granddaughter of William the Conqueror. Of course, on their father’s side, the Plantagenets were descended from the Counts of Anjou, who also were vassals of the French crown.

Quite right. I confess my eyes tend to glaze over at the sight of a family tree, so my knowledge of the intricacies of noble families has always been a bit lacking.

[Svejk_1]

@Ludovic

My thought is nearly the opposite: English that sticks as closely as it can to its Anglo-Saxon roots usually makes more sense, gets to the point better, and is just more poetic than sentences that get bogged down in too much legalistic-sounding French-derived verbiage.

More poetic? Legalistic-sounding? Come on, practically every other word in this sentence is of French derivation. No one speaking modern English could function without words of French derivation.

Some words from your sentence:
opposite
[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin oppositus, past participle of oppnere, oppose; see oppose.]

usual(ly)
[Middle English, from Old French usuel, from Late Latin sulis, from Latin sus, use, from past participle of t, to use.]

close(ly)
[Middle English clos, closed, from Old French, from Latin clausus, past participle of claudere, to close. V., from Middle English closen, from Old French clore, clos-, from Latin claudere.]

sense
[Middle English, meaning, from Old French sens, from Latin snsus, the faculty of perceiving, from past participle of sentre, to feel; see sent- in Indo-European roots.]

point
[Middle English, partly from Old French point, prick, mark, moment (from Vulgar Latin *punctum, from Latin pnctum, from neuter past participle of pungere, to prick) and partly from Old French pointe, sharp end (from Vulgar Latin *puncta, from Latin pncta, from feminine past participle of pungere, to prick; see peuk- in Indo-European roots).]

just
[Middle English juste, from Old French, from Latin istus; see yewes- in Indo-European roots.]

sentence
[Middle English, opinion, from Old French, from Latin sententia, from sentins, sentient-, present participle of sentre, to feel; see sent- in Indo-European roots.]

[Fubaya]

Before the Iraq war, when Congress got mad at France and renamed french fries “freedom fries,” I wrote a script to take text, look up the words in a dictionary and change any of them with French etymology to “freedom.”

I thought it would be funny, but a lot of sentences would end up like “The freedom freedom of the freedom freedom freedom, freedom for freedom in the freedom…” and it quickly became pointless.

[Wendell_Wagner]

Huerta88 writes:

> As potentially heated as the debate over who were “true” Celts – Galicians?
> Bretons?

I’m not sure what this means. The Celts were spread (more or less) over what is now France, the U.K., and Ireland by 500 B.C. As the Romans conquered France during the next few centuries, the people there began speaking a language that was mostly Latin but with a lot of Celtic borrowings. Other Celts moved into the area that’s now Spain. Some of them became what are now Galicians. They speak a language that’s pretty close to Spanish and Portuguese with a few Celtic borrowings. Meanwhile, the Anglo-Saxons came to England, pushing the Celts back into Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Cornwall, and the Isle of Man and creating English, which has some Celtic borrowings. Some of those Celts moved to Brittany, where they now speak a Celtic language.

Although the Galicians like to talk about their Celtic ancestry, it’s only noticeable in a few customs and a few words. English has more words derived from Celtic sources than Galician does. French has more words derived from Celtic sources than English does. Indeed, a lot of the words in English ultimately derived from Celtic sources are French words that were borrowed after 1066 A.D. when the Norman French arrived.

> An interesting question, one I have no idea how to address, is how
> much “Norman French” was influenced by the language of the Norse occupiers
> of northwest France, which would (I presume) feed back into various
> Norse/Germanic languages, some not un-related to Anglo-Saxon roots that had
> already hit Britain . . . .

Although French is basically a Romance language (i.e., derived from Latin), it contains a lot of words borrowed from Germanic (i.e., Norse) and Celtic sources. So although there were words in Norman French derived from Germanic sources, it wasn’t that much more than in the French of the other parts of the country. Basically, the French are Celtic and Germanic peoples who ended up speaking Latin.

[Wendell_Wagner]

Congress never renamed French fries as “freedom fries”:

Freedom fries

A Representative with authority over the House of Representatives restaurant told them to change the name. They did so, but later they changed it back.