French speakers - I need translation help

Factual Questions
21

Well, I didn’t mean to set off a pissing match, I’m actually just genuinely interested in the differences between Canadian French and French French. The vowel sound in demain (and the initial ‘d’) are pretty substantially different between Canada and France, although I imagine you know that. Some of the words I’ve seen used in this thread, such as gaillard and effronté are not current usage in France, although most people will recognize them. Gaillard (noun) is sometimes used humorously. The verb tenses at first sight also seem to be used differently - making parallels with English would be pretty risky since the two languages function differently. Even with words that are common two different countries, What can be tricky is subtext - like the funeral usage of adieu and regretter in France.

I have to say though, that I have even less knowledge of Pacific islands French than I do of Canadian, so as regards jabiru’s patient Rentre bien et bon courage !

Anecdote : The first time I visited the US, I got out of the airport after the 8 hour Paris-New York flight and dragged my exhausted body into a taxicab, only to find that I couldn’t communicate with the driver. I tried Spanish but still wasn’t getting anywhere, so ended up showing him an email printout with my hotel’s address.

Ten minutes later he turned on the radio and I realized he was Haitian, and the language he’d been speaking was French. After that we did manage to communicate - but it was still pretty tough !

Since then I’ve come into contact with Louisiana French, and some French speakers from Maine - again, recognizably the same language, but substantially different from the French spoken in France today. We’ve been getting more exposure to Quebecois in France lately from comedians like Anthony Kavanaugh and Stéphane Rousseau - but I guess all that’s another thread, another time !

22

Just some corrections (I don’t mean to be rude, I know my English is not perfect either !)

As Themenin said, we don’t use “effronté” or “gaillard” very much…

“C’est un jeune homme courageux” instead of “Il est un jeune homme courageux”

“Il reprend des forces” instead of “Il reprend ses forces”

We don’t say “Il est en douleur” but “Il a mal” and “Où as-tu mal ?” for “Where is the pain”

Everything that has been said to this point is Ok and they will understand you for sure !

Ah, “Adieu” is not of very common use either… We prefer “Au revoir”, even if we won’t see the person anymore…

23

They are almost never used in Quebec French either. In fact, I thought they were more often used in France French.

I’m less sure that there are differences between Quebec and France on these points. Valteron’s suggestions are not necessarily Quebec French usage, in fact, reading them, they seemed more “international French” to me.

I took a cab in Boston with a Haitian driver at some point. My supervisor tried to speak French with him, but I think he mostly knew Haitian Creole and very little French.

24

No bloody wonder non-Francophones get so confused that they don’t know whether to shit or wind their watches when they try to learn French. Ask two Francophones how to say something and you will get 20 different opinions about the one and only way in the whole universe to say that particular thing. Which is always the way THEY would say it of course. Any other way of saying MUST be wrong, of course.

French, or **ANY OTHER LANGUAGE ON EARTH ** has a variety of equally legitimate ways to express any given idea.

“Il a mal” means “he is hurting”. 'Il est en douleur" means "He is in pain. "You could also say “Il souffre”, for that matter.
Do you seriouslty believe that there is one and only one way to convey a thought like that in French or English, the way you are familiar with?
YOU may not use “gaillard” and “effronté” a lot. But both words are fully recognized in every French dictionary I have ever seen, and neither of them are indicated as being obsolete or archaic. Obviously, if a Francophone in Canada and two Francophones from New Caledonia (the lady and her son) all understand “effronté” perfectly well, maybe, just maybe, it is a legitimate French term even if you, personally, do not use it a lot. Francophones in Canada and New Caledonia are part of the two-thirds majority of the world’s French speakers who do not live in France. (Gee, I wonder where the French got their reputation for arrogance?)

“Il reprend des (or ses) forces” are both perfectly legitimate ways of saying that he is getting his strength back. One stresses that he is getting some strength back, the other implies that he is getting back the strength he should have.

Honestly, sometimes I think Francophones try extra hard to complicate things when they don’t need to be complicated. Language is an art, not a science. It is not as if someone had said that the formula for water is HBO instead of H2O.

But here is an expression we DO use in Canada that is probably not used in France. “Analyse de chie de mouche”. Analyzing fly shit. It is a wonderful expression that means nit-picking in English. If this expression is not currently used in France, I strongly urge you to adopt it. From what I can see, it could come in VERY handy!

25

Well, in spite of my writings, you took what I said the wrong way, ie you just went crazy and excited/angry at me (this should have been in the Pit instead of here !)

I think we are here to help people with our answers and offer them the best we can. As a French native speaker, I THOUGHT it was a good idea to tell what we use in France, and that it would be welcomed.

So I don’t know how about Canada, but I’ve never ever heard “Il est en douleur”, and I’ve studied literature, so I might have encountered it if it was used. And any French will look at you very surprised if you said “Il est en douleur”. “Il souffre” is, indeed, something we use. I never said there was only one way to say something in French. We can say “Il souffre” or “Il a mal”, but we never say “Il est en douleur”. So maybe it’s something you say in Canada, but not in France, and it’s a well-known fact that there are some colloquialisms in each of our countries.

If I am “analyzing fly shit”, YOU are the touchiest (?) (= most susceptible) person I’ve ever met !

26

In light of Valteron’s last post, I should mention that while “gaillard” and “effronté” are words that might not be used that often in Quebec, I certainly understand them, consider them completely valid French words, and wouldn’t bat an eye if someone used them in conversation with me. And actually, now that I think about it, I think that “effronté” is actually used in Quebec French, including in the way jabiru mentioned. Another word (in Quebec or at least Canadian French, I don’t think it’s used anywhere else) used for “cheeky” would be “haïssable”, pronounced “aguissable”. Yes, it literally means “hateable”, but it’s actually an endearing term.

As for “il est en douleur”, yes, maybe it sounds a little odd, but I probably wouldn’t even notice it in conversation. It really doesn’t sound all that odd. It does seem to be copied on the English “he is in pain”, though. “Il reprend des forces” and “ses forces” are both entirely correct.

Valteron, isn’t it “analyse de chiures de mouches”?

27

Perhaps you are not aware, Severiane, that the people of France are famous for their arrogant and condesceding attitude to francophones in other countries. If it is not exactly the way you would say it, you put your nose in the air and declare “Ce n’est pas français.”

The British, for example, might say, “I don’t half fancy her” to mean they are very attracted to someone.

Americans may say: “I am sweet on her” or “She turns me on.” All of these expressions are equally correct.

Americans say “What?” or “Say what?” when they didn’t hear you correctly, wheras the British say “Pardon?” or “Sorry?”. But nobody goes on a web site to tell an American or a Britisher that they are not speaking English correctly if they use these terms.

I have never heard a Brit say that an American is wrong to call a “lorry” a “truck”, for example, or vice-versa.

If “effronté” occurs in every French dictionary published in France (surely you have a Lorousse or a Robert handy?), and if I and my mother and my family and seven million other Canadian francophones, as well as at least two people in French Polynesia, and my Vietnamese French-speaking doctor are perfectly familiar with the term, has it occurred to you that maybe it is you, in France, who might be insufficiently familiar with it?

(Un Français qui ne parle pas parfaitement sa langue? – mais voyons, c’est impossible!!!)

So please excuse the horrible, barbaric, colonial French that follows. To make it easier for you to choose the right words, I have given you a few variations, so you can choose the correct one and eliminate all the incorrect ones.

Dorénavant (À l’avenir) (À compter d’aujourd’hui)

je vous prie (je vous suggère) (je vous demande)

de fournir (offrir) (donner)

à cette dame

les phrases françaises

dont elle a besoin (qu’il lui faut)

pour lui permettre de (afin qu’elle puisse)

communiquer avec (parler à)

ce garçon (ce petit) (cet enfant).

Moi, je me retire de ce dossier (de cette discussion).

28

I shall take the time to mention that this is correct. The way a Frenchman says “demain” sounds more like “deman” to a francophone Canadian. And of course, the ‘d’ is affricated in Canadian French.

Oh, and Valteron, if you think Severiane or anyone else from France is being condescending to other francophones, you should in fact bring this to the Pit. This is not the place.

29

Tell you what, Severus. You can form a committee with a few dozen scholars who can study whether it should be “chie or chiures” and Severianne can form a second committee to study if one should say “reprendre des forces” or “reprendre ses forces”. Both of you can spend several years holding debates, reading scholarly papers and generally discussing the issue.

By the time you get through with it, that kid from New Caledonia will not only have left the hospital, but all of us will be dead of old age.

As you can see from my answer to Severianne, I am dropping this thread.

I have enough to do as a professional English-French/French-English simultaneous interpreter, a trade in which I am accredited and which I have worked at for 20 years. I regularly serve francophones from France, Belgium, Switzerland, Africa, Haiti, Canada and Polynesia, and amazingly enough, not one has ever said they could not understand what I was saying.

30

By affricated I assume you are referring to the way Canadian French pronounces “du” and “dire” as “dzu” and “dzire”?

Well, Severus, that is true, but if you really knew much about Canadian French, you would know that d is affricated only before the vowls u and i.

NOBODY in Quebec pronounces “danger” for example, as “dzanger”. General Romeo Dallaire’s name is not pronounced “Dzallaire”. Nobody pronounces “dormir” as “dzormir”.

Similarly, “demain” is not pronounced “dzemain”.

So you are quite wrong to say the d in “demain” is affricated. Secondly, I am still right when I told the OP that the n in demain is NOT pronounced but comes across s a nasal sound on the last syllable. No Frenchman that I have ever heard pronounces an “n” at the end of that word, nor does any French Canadian.

Main, bain, vin, train, bon, ton, mon, son . . .take your pick. The n is never pronounced as it would be in, for example “panne” or “manie” or “nordique”.

31

You are correct to say that the ‘d’ isn’t affricated. I saw Themenin say that the ‘d’ in “demain” was substantially different in Quebec and in France. I assumed this is what he or she meant, and just said it. But afterwards, while actually pronouncing the word, I noticed that it wasn’t in fact affricated, at least not to the extent that it was in a word like, say, “divan”.

And indeed, the ‘n’ at the end of “demain” isn’t pronounced in French (it makes the vowel nasal), but I don’t think anyone claimed that. The nasal vowel in this word is in fact pronounced differently in France and in Canada, though.

32

You were right the first time: I’m en Australie :smiley:

Yes, I know chez isn’t a form but I was typing quickly because I was (almost) late for work. However, you picked up on my concern about using that word. I didn’t want to give him the false impression that he’d be going back to his house. As I said before, ‘home’ in English is such an elastic term. If I’m speaking to an English speaking tourist, I can ask “how long will you be here? When are you going home?” and simply mean “when will you be returning to your country of residence”. I don’t know if that’s true of French but I was concerned enough about the use of chez to want to avoid it.

I’ll ask his Mum; his comprehension is improving all the time but speech is still a bit of a problem for him. Thanks for the phrases. I hope I get a chance to fais la coutume before they leave.

33

So “demain” sounds a little different in Canadian French. So Americans say “to-MAY-to” and Englishmen say “to-MAH-to”. Brits pronounce “rather” like "RAW-the and Americans and Canadians say “REH-ther”.

So what???

I could probably list 500 words or more that are pronounced differently or are completely different words for the same thing in “British” and “American”, from lorry/truck, boot/trunk, sollictor/lawyer, etc. American and Canadian English vary as well. For example, Canadians pronounce words like “out” and “about” as very short syllables halfway between “oo” and “ow”.

Spaniards pronounce “cement” like “themento” and South Americans pronounce it “say-MEN-to”. But it is agreed that they are all speaking Spanish.

Northern Germans pronounce words differently from southern Germans. In “Bayerisch” the variety of German spoken in Bavaria, “Tag” (day) sounds like “tock”. But nobody denies they are all speaking German.

Jamaican English is not the same as Texan English, Australian English or Scottish English. But they are all English.

So what is your point?

34

*Vous irez chez vous demain * is correct but

Vous pourrez rentrer chez vous demain is more appropriate

(francophone here)

35

Chill out, man. My point? That “demain” sounds a little different in France and in Canada, nothing else. Themenin says he or she is interested in the differences between the different dialects of French, so that’s what we were discussing. jabiru’s question is already pretty much answered.

Yes, people in France, New Caledonia and Quebec all speak French. Yes, if someone from France tries to claim that they don’t speak “correct” French because they use words that the Frenchman doesn’t use, or they don’t use words that the Frenchman uses, it is the Frenchman who is in the wrong. But I don’t think anyone in this thread made this claim. I think you’re projecting the experience you’ve had with a few people from France onto the posters in this thread.