From bad to worse

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
21

I know I sound like the kind of people who make excuses for being beaten and believe me I NEVER wanted to sound like that or be in that position. I also, a year and a half ago, did not see myself married with stepchildren on an air force base in japan. That is no excuse for making excuses I know, but imagine if you already feel sort of helpless in a situation and add to it the immense oddness of sudden change of life…I;m still adjusting to being here (I have only been here one year now) and I’ve been homseick and stressfully adjusting during that time. I am sure I don’t make my husband’s life easy.

However the thing is, no form of counseling is going to help him because he just doesn’t see that he is doing anything wrong. Every time he tells a story about what happened, it becomes less and less like what happened. Now as he tells it he wasn’t even angry or arguing with me when he pushed me, he simply was trying to move me out of the way and I tripped. He denies anything else, which makes me feel insanely frustrated, because whatever his intentions at the time were, I KNOW WE WERE YELLING when it happened. Is he lying? In denial? I don’t know.

The other problem is, when he was married before, they used to fight a lot too. And she beat him quite badly, busted his head open, etc. (Which is why he got custody of the kids so easily.) He tells me that because he is used to being in a relationship like that, any time I yell at him he reacts to “restrain me” because he’s sure I’m going to hit him. No matter how often I tell him that a) he should trust that I am not going to hit him, and b) he is stronger than me, and knows martial arts moves, and therefore his idea of “restraining me” is unfairly matched, he sticks to it that “I am who I am and you can’t change me”.

Now when he was having fights in his previous marriage, he did not hit or push his wife but they made them both attend counseling and anger management classes, in which he was taught that it is always the man’s fault…some archaic military idea I guess cause my mother used to beat on my father as well so I know it’s not always the man. So his classes served only to make my husband angry. He felt it wrecked his life. Flash forward in time and now he’s at a new base, married to a new person, and he thinks I’m good and perfect. This stuff starts happening again, he’s got the same situation as before, so now he feels betrayed by me and that I wrecked his life again.

I am well aware that he wrecks his own life, and that even in the military counseling and anger management classes do not mean his life or career are wrecked. Nor does it mean that his kids are going to get taken away, noone is concerned about child neglect but he gets paranoid that military spies are going to be watching us now…insane crap that even someone like me with a limited knowledge of how the air force works knows is untrue.

My point is, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. My husband is gonna be forced to attend stuff to “help” him, but as long as he remains bitter and opposed to it, it’s never going to do anything. And I want to stay with him because we do have great times and he’s an intelligent, cool person, but even after a year I am just beginning to see how complex he is.

And of course with us about to go to war and him with a good chance of deploying at any time, for any length of time, and possibly with only a day’s notice, the kinks in our relationship are not going to be fixed anytime soon…

22

acrossthesea, do you believe that you are being abused by your husband, or do you believe that you are not being abused by your husband?

23

I believe that I am being abused by my husband. However I would hope that somehow things can be ironed out so that it stops. Like for instance, if he can’t change the fact that my yelling at him makes him feel threatened and react harshly, I will try and compromise and not argue over little things with him.

24

You need to re-read what you wrote here acroosthesea. And then think about how in his first marriage it was all his ex-wife’s fault.

If to your face he can deny something that happened to you just a few days ago how can you believe anything he says about his first marriage or his anger management classes or anything else?

He doesn’t push you because you argue with him. He pushes you because he can not control his anger. You can’t walk on egg shells your whole life trying not to anger him so he won’t hit you. It won’t work and will make you miserable too.

25

I have a somewhat different take on this but I still think the relationship is doomed. How two people are going to wind up interacting in an argument is a complicated dynamic. Some people (men and woman) tend to lash out physically when they get to a certain point of irritation or anger and some do not.

Some arguments that end up with one person getting pushed or shoved are not necessarily indicative of a truly “abusive” relationship overall, and may be normal and supportive otherwise except a rare occurrence of these episodes. I have seen many arguments between couples and quite frankly some men and women are experts at deliberately and maliciously pressing each others buttons until the argument escalates into violence with either the man or woman (who is not characteristically violent) acting out.

Women are not childlike fools, and while some women will keep quiet about a violent argument because of a very real fear their SO really is a violent, sociopath that needs to be locked up, other women will keep quiet because the behavior was highly unusual for their SO, they are well aware of what happened in the argument, and may assign some degree of blame to themselves for instigating or escalating the argument to the point it got violent. In the arguments I have seen between upper-middle and middle class couples that ultimately got violent, they were not normally characterized by a cringing female in fear of the next blow, but are usually two people yelling and screaming and getting in each others faces which then escalates to chest poking or throwing things at or in the vicinity of the other spouse, and after that a tussle usually ensues until one spouse (or both) gets injured. Because of the dimorphic nature of male-female size strength disparities, even if both spouses are going at it, the woman will normally (not always) be the one suffering significant or noticeable injuries.

The problem is for a participant to be judicious and self aware enough of what is unusual behavior in an otherwise normal relationship that is unlikely to ever be repeated, and what becomes a pattern of true “abuse” which is sometimes difficult or impossible to do, especially if they are in the middle of it. I can well imagine the hair trigger reaction of the military to a potential abused spouse given that they operate in an environment of physically powerful, aggressive personalities that are often under stress. Near zero tolerance is about the only rational policy you can have to keep this stuff from getting out of hand.

Per the OP, regardless of how the argument got to the point that it did, it is evident that her hubby has a problem dealing with anger and a history with this problem. I am not that optimistic that counseling will do much to change this in a grown man unless he wants to change, and I kind of doubt that he feels he needs to. Pandora’s box has been opened and the (justified or not) anger he will feel as the various agencies crawl up his rectum, and at the social shunning and/or stigma that will ensue will likely suffuse into a slow burn that will eventually explode at some point in the future. I do not imagine his divorce threat is idle, and if there are no children involved it is quite likely that he will divorce her at some point in the not too distant future, as she (to him) has become an albatross that will constantly remind him of his violent transgression. He will reason (rationally or not) that if he can get clear of her and this mess her can start “fresh” without the baggage and stigma of being an “abuser”. IMO the relationship is doomed and it would be better to get out sooner rather than later.

26

There is nothing that you can do to stop him from abusing you other then leave him.

There are things that he can do like anger management and therapy if he really wants to change. If he isn’t willing to do these things then there is nothing you can do to stop him. No matter how hard you try not to “argue over little things” the arguements will still come up.

27

acrossthesea, I’m truly sorry that you’re going through this.

And I hate to have to ask a question that might hurt you, but…

If counseling won’t change him, what makes you think you can?

And another thought…

What is this doing to your children?

28

The children, who are young toddlers, have exhibited signs of emotional stress through the year I’ve known them. They’re his kids, from his previous marriage, so they have already witnessed fighting, divorce, and been shuffled around a lot due to us ending up in tokyo. One of the two kids is a 3 year old boy who is the source of a lot of the stress in our house. He has uncontrollable rage, constant (excessive) tantrums, isn’t potty trained, and shows some really strange behavior at times. Even my husband, who will normally not worry about it, lately has agreed that this boy needs some sort of help. Unfortunately though he’s afraid to seek it because it’s the same agency who’s investigating us that handles child development problems. So there’s a fear that by trying to get someone to look at his son, he’ll get blamed and lose custody. I am very close to convincing him to do it though, so at least with this one thing we seem to be agreeing…

Neither this boy or his 2 year old sister are usually around when we argue. Sometimes though it’s happened and they have witnessed a few times where their father was “forceably removing” me from a room. They don’t even react, but I have a harder time getting the boy to obey me than my husband does. It’s not because I’m not his true mother because he believes I am at this point. My stepdaughter’s behavior is increasingly clingy to both me and my husband and this is mostly cause my husband works nights so the kids hardly see him, he has to sleep all day. So some of the problems with the kids can’t be helped due to military scheduling…

I know I can’t change him. (my husband, that is, not my stepson who hopefully is young enough to be changed.) I suppose it’s just a hope that if he loves me enough he’ll make an effort for me.

29

In response to Tristan, I do not hit or shove my husband in any way. I am sure I say and do things to provoke him into being angry at me, although whatever anyone might say I don’t intentionally pick fights. Generally our fights are because of his schedule. He works all night and sleeps all day, or tries to sleep all day. Which is sometimes hard cause of the light, and the noisy kids, and other stuff. The problem is he’ll end up trying to sleep for 14 hours or so, which leaves me feeling overwhelmed with chores, childcare, and also feeling lonely. So he says “wake me up at such and such time”. That time comes and there is no getting him up. This often means that i can’t go outside at all that day - i cant take the kids when its just me cause they go wild in the streets- or that we don’t have any groceries because I dont have a driver’s liscence here so he’s the only one that can go. So we’ll end up fighting about waking him up because I’m stressed and he’s always tired. or we’ll fight about the problems with the kids.
In response to Astro, I’d say that violent behavior isn’t totally unusual in his personality. he’s pushed me into or out of rooms many times in the last few months. This was just the only time I hit a wall and got an injury. He hasn’t been supportive of me in a long time, or sympathetic to the feelings that a new military spouse who suddenly has someone else’s kids might feel.
i don’t raise a hand to him. I couldnt…if he reacts like this because he feels threatened cause I yelled at him, how would he respond if I actually pushed him?

Our relationship was lacking this kind of thing before he started working nights, and before the threat of him getting deployed was a day to day worry. It’s no wonder that the air force supposedly has a higher divorce rate than the real world…and this base has the hightest divorce rate in the air force!

30

acrossthesea

In some of your other threads, you say that your husband is addicted to a computer game. That he would rather spend what there is of his time awake in the fantasy world of the game than spend it with you and the kids.

Is it possible that, although he loves you, he expects you to exist only to care for him and his children? (And I suspect that the older child is only mimicing his father’s attitude - if Dad doesn’t respect you, why should the child?)

He is keeping you isolated from “outside” influences and being physically and emotionally abusive toward you. You are in a very frightening situation. But you must get help and support from someone nearby.

And don’t think that his orders coming through is going to solve the problem. The problems will just get bigger while he’s gone. And since he over-rationalizes his abusive nature, it will be much worse when he returns.

Please get all the help you can.

31

In Conceivable and acrossthesea- I wasn’t saying that you are abusive, I was just pointing out that there are always more than one side to a situation, even one with as much emotional charge as abusive relationships.

acrossthesea- You know that he is physically reactive. And you engage in arguements, and yell, knowing full well that this usually escalates things to a dangerous point.

For the sake of your marriage.
For the sake of the children.
And for our safety and his…

both of you, not just he, need to seek therapy. Anger management, couples therapy, something. This is not good behavior… he is violent, and you are responding to that.

I’m willing to bet that there is some abuse of one form or another in your past, but that’s a whole other thread.

All I’m saying is that he, your husband, has issues that need to be addressed. And so do you.

Once you get your heads on straight, you will know if you can stay together. Then you can start getting the kids the help that they need.

Good luck, and remember the board is always here for venting and advice.

32

“I believe that I am being abused by my husband.”

“No form of counseling is going to help him.”
Then you have two options:

  1. Resign yourself to a lifetime of abuse; or

  2. Separation and divorce.
    My heart goes out to you… I urge you to reject victimization.

33

I’ve been trying to post this for two days now. I guess the hamsters ate it. Grrrr. I will try again.

acrossthesea twice in your writing here you mention “hope” that things will change. I’d like to gently suggest to you that wishing that it would change is not going to make it change. That takes things such as counseling.

And, trying to avoid doing things which anger your husband is not going to work. I tried that with my first husband, and it just made him angrier because he could not blame me for things.

I tried to be as good as I could. I rushed straight home from work, school, or errands. I did not talk on the phone to friends or family. I did not own a single piece of red clothing (only whores wear red, you know). I did not wear makeup. I did not own a pair of shorts or a bathing suit. He still went on rages and hit me.

I don’t think you need to be in the situation you are in; I also don’t think that those kids do either. Living with a crazy person will make you crazy. The last time my ex spent the night with me I ended up pulling a gun on him.

I hate to be so blunt about it, but I’m very worried that you need to get out before one of you goes home in a pine box. :frowning: . Please get help now!

34

IMO, any two people in the world can get along famously and have great time… as long as they arent’ in disagreement. It is when two people disagree that the true nature of the relationship shows - and right now it shows that your relationship is fucked.

My ex was abusive. Not physically abusive but verbally abusive. I tried everything I could think of to convince him to stop insulting me. I tried yelling, cajoling, logic… you name it.

Finally, I told him that his behavior was unacceptable. Simply that, in a nice calm voice - “You will not treat me like that”. He was furious that I would find anything he did unacceptable, and I realized that we had no marriage if he was willing to hurt me to get what he wanted, and wanted full permission to hurt me whenever he felt like it. I gave him three months to change his mind and then I divorced him.
I don’t think it is completely impossible for your husband to change, but you must make it clear to him that his abusive behavior is unacceptable. My ex used abuse to win arguments. And sometimes I let it work - which simply reinforced his pattern of abuse, and slowly destroyed our marriage. Don’t reward your husband for his abuse, and let him know that you will never agree with his position if he tries to enforce it with violence.

I do believe counseling can work, and that a marriage can be successfully turned around if both people are working on the marriage . I have a recommendation for you. You are (in a word) co-dependent. Because frankly a person who was not co-dependent would have either walked the first time her husband abused her, or would have gone after him with a frying pan. So I recommend that you read Recovering Love: Codependency to Corecovery by J. Richard Cookerly. This is an amazing book that uses actual research (not just someone’s pet theory) to show what real love is and how to rebuild a relationship that is in trouble.

35

acrossthesea, I can’t even begin to imagine how frightening and out-of-control your life must seem right now. You are in an abusive relationship, and yet he has convinced you (or you’ve allowed yourself to be convinced) that if you could just behave properly, he wouldn’t be abusive.

There are some very wise and compassionate people here on the board, please listen to them!! Get out, or insist on a change, but do not continue to accept unacceptable behavior! Every time you do, it reinforces his notion that what he’s doing is excusable. It’s not! You will be in my thoughts and my prayers!

36

Ex-military man checking in here:

I debated whether to relate this story but if it does some good…

In our barracks at Ft. Lewis, we had a woman who was being sheltered for 3 days in a situation similar to what you wrote, i.e. an argument turned into a shoving match.

I had CQ duty (charge of quarters for you non-military folks) on the Saturday night immediately after she began staying there. The gentleman in question turned up in our barracks with a gun. Between myself and the MPs we were able to keep the situation in hand, but the what if factor stays with me until this day.

Despite what you may believe about his being a good person, good people kill all the time. This is a situation calling for immediate attention, be it counseling, anger management, divorce. The alternative is just not worth the gamble.

37

acrossthesea, if you decide that you want/need to leave, talk to the First Sgt. or Squadron Commander about an ERD. This is an Early Return of Dependents from overseas locations. If I recall correctly, the military will send you back to the States early (with them paying the airfare). Good to know in case money is short.

You’re in my Positive Thoughts/Good Vibes/Prayers. Please re-read the previous advice, most Dopers are wise, big-hearted people.

38

Sweetie, there isn’t any advice to give that hasn’t already been given. I’m crying for you. Let me know if you want to talk more privately, I’m changing my profile to include my email.

Hang in there, be strong and be true to yourself. Don’t be afraid of the truth.

Prayers for you.

39

There ya go. My email should be activated this time.

40

Acrossthesea, even if he doesn’t mean to hurt you, it’s possible that he will hurt you badly because he’s not mature enough to control his anger. I know it’s hard to picture yourself without him, but you have to look at this with your head instead of your heart and get out until he admits he has a problem. And if he doesn’t admit it, get on with your life without him. Believe me, I know it’s not easy but you have to look out for yourself.