And …?
This is specifically that one leaked set.
Do you have any examples in which the MeToo movement has “ensared” people in this situation or “good people doing something awkward once or twice”?
It seems to me Aziz’s situation is getting men to reconsider their behavior in a positive way:
Talking to a stranger in a grocery store is not outside the bounds of normal polite behavior (assuming you’re just making normal polite conversation and not saying grosscreepy stuff right off the bat). Yes, if the stranger in the grocery store seems uncomfortable with you talking to them then you back off, but it wasn’t “inappropriate behavior” per se.
That’s not the kind of behavior I was talking about. Although I think it’s kind of sweet that when somebody says they’re a little worried about possibly having “tak[en] the initiative” in a way that might have “seemed coercive” without “making sufficiently sure that the [other person] was okay with it”, your mind instantly jumps to… striking up a conversation with a stranger in a grocery store. 
And part of why you do that and why the new consciousness about consent matters is because doing so blows the cover of many people who WERE actively exploiting social attitudes to take advantage of people (in many cases without even realizing their actions were harmful or to what extent).
The simplest example I can offer is that, when I was in college just a decade an change ago, talking about getting girls drunk so they’d be more likely to say yes was common. It was just absolutely a thing. People would say, “hey, I hope there’s a lot of beer at this party so the girls will all be drunk!” I’m under the impression that people on campus are much, much more aware that this isn’t okay and that people too drunk to think clearly aren’t really consenting.
When “good people” work harder to make their consent and intentions clear, it makes it harder for actual bad actors to operate and also avoids unintended harm.
:rolleyes:
This is the kind of ultra-feminist hobbyhorse the commonsense majority of people will just never agree with you about. People, male or female, get drunk as a social lubricant, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future even if you find that “problematic”.
Sure, it’s wrong to take advantage of someone who is passed out, or so blitzed (even if still sort of conscious) that they don’t have a clear idea of what’s going on around them. But if their non-debilitating buzz makes them more open to having sex when they might not have been into it stone cold sober, that doesn’t mean they aren’t capable of consenting. Jesus. :smack:
I mean, think this through. Do you really want to say that if a woman has any alcohol in her system, she now cannot have sex even if she really wants to, not until her BAC is back to 0.00? Fuck that. This is not sex-positive feminism you are describing.
BTW, I think what Louis CK did was wrong, and he should face consequences for it. But the reaction to him has been OTT, out of proportion to the offense committed.
I love when internet commentators explain how funny works, especially those that are typically such sticks in the mud.
“Ooh he’s punching down that’s not funny”
Get a grip. Anything can be funny. You don’t put things into socioeconomic context before your instinct to laugh kicks in. If you do, I feel bad for you.
No, which is why I did not say that.
There IS a difference between “drinking as social lubricant” and “being so drunk you don’t say no.” Also, please understand that I’m not specifically advocating this viewpoint – I’m relating that I’m aware there IS a sea change people are observing around consent. Your glib insistence that this is feminism run rampart that will never catch on is opposed by my experience.
When I was in college, again, people straight up would say, “If she gets drunk enough, she’ll sleep with you.”
Students of both genders at the school I work at recently organized an event to advocate and clarify the concept of willing and capable consent. This was NOT something that happened when I was in school – and sex-positive feminism is part of that. We were told that good girls don’t GIVE willing consent, so your job as a man was to convince her she REALLY wanted to, and if that took a few drinks or bargaining or always taking the lead even if she seemed nervous or not enthused, that’s just how it worked.
That’s not how it works now, and that’s better for everybody involved.
And, that being said, there absolutely are folks who DO now take the position that alcohol and sex shouldn’t mix, especially if there’s any unfamiliar activity or boundary pushing involved. I consider that a stronger than necessary position, but I consider it a lot more valid than “if she didn’t say no, it doesn’t matter how many drinks she had.”
That’s true. Pretty much everyone points and laughs at your posts, for instance.
There’s more gray area than you like to admit. I remember people talking about “First date drinks”–drinks that have a LOT more alcohol in them than you can taste. The idea was that you get a girl drunker than she intended to get herself–not to the point that she’s incoherent, but a lot more sloppy–and she’s a lot more likely to “let” you do whatever. That’s not rape, but it’s deeply problematic–and the fact that people weren’t even bothered by that, that guys would talk about doing this in front of me, this chick they hung out with, and none of us thought it was anything but clever, shows how much things have changed.
Good for him. IMHO, the only he was guilty of was being bad in bed and an inconsiderate lover - and I think it’s kind of crappy to publicly shame someone over the intimate details of a consensual sexual encounter.
ETA: there was a basic lack of communication in the short-lived relationship. Aziz thought he was having a one night stand, Grace thought she was on her first date with her new celebrity boyfriend. No wonder it fell apart.
Nm
I haven’t followed anything since the initial story, but that was my take-away. They both had very different ideas of what was happening.
Perhaps I have missed other details, but that hardly seems #metoo worthy.
I’m so old that I can remember when ‘punching down’ at Asian men was something restricted to Ivy League college admission professionals.
I think it all depends on what “let” means. That could definitely be problematic, or it could be kind of “fuck it”, like a spring break mentality, and I don’t think that is problematic even if it can be embarrassing the next day.
The way you describe the drinks makes it sound pretty dastardly, but I think if you manage to serve someone a drink that is really strong without it seeming strong, and it’s not a Long Island ice tea, then very impressive. Point being that I think you have to expect a drink to be strong, and women have to really go slow because they get drunk more easily. If it falls within the generally understood parameters of being an actual cocktail, with alcohol and mixer and no roofies, I don’t think that’s predatory. Maybe in the moral sense, but I keep saying that we have to have some things we look at and cluck our tongues or shake our heads about, but which we don’t start bringing legal concepts like “consent” into them.
Aziz seems to have turned out to be a profoundly disappointing person in private. But it should have been just that: private.
Everybody give it up for the comedy stylings of Sam Stone! Did this guy come out of nowhere, or what?
You think that serving someone a drink that is much stronger than normal, mixed so it’s hard for them to notice, in the hope that they will then be more likely to have sex with you, is “impressive”?
Oh, we “have to have some things” to which consent doesn’t apply, do we? And why is that?
I re-viewed all of Louis CK’s specials… Better than when I first heard them! Thanks for the reminder!