You can get rich by working. You can’t get wealthy. To paraphrase Chris Rock, “Shaquille O’Neal is rich. The guy who writes Shaquille O’Neal’s checks is wealthy.”
You can generally only get wealth through ownership. Rich people get wealthy by buying the right things. I say this as someone who is essentially a paper millionaire–my husband and I were one of 6 who invested $2500 four years ago to start a company that is now worth somewhere in the realm of $15-20 million.
And guess what? I’m STILL in favor of a high estate tax. I’m dead, what does it matter to me? So my kid might get $500,000 instead of a million? One million instead of two? The vast majority of people will not leave estates large enough to get dinged by the tax anyway, and as someone who is rich, I recognize the fact that just as I pull more weight in purchasing power, I need to pull more weight in funding our society. I enjoy all the benefits of it, so I can handle one little drawback. I don’t understand rich people who don’t get this.
Democrats passed pay-go this month. Republicans voted against it, to a man.
There’s no valid point in trying to make an equivalency when no such equivalency exists. Ask a Republican about paying off the Iraq war debt, and they’ll pretend it came from Mars or sumthin. Ask a Republican about passing a Jobhs bill, and they’ll talk you ear off about the so called ‘death tax.’
Maybe you didn’t expect anybody to actually read your cite, but I did and it doesn’t say what you claim it says. First of all, the exemption in 2000 was $675K, not $1.5M, so you got that wrong. You also apparently made up that figure of 740 Estates that would not have enough liquid assets to pay the Estate tax, because the CBO site specifically says the number in 2000 was 138 estates. Once again, that was with the exemption at $675K, not $1.5M. The CBO site says that exemptions set at $1.5M or higher would substantially REDUCE the number of farms affected by the Estate tax at all (it says it ran numbers at $1.5M, $2M and $3.5. No figures for $1M in that analysis, but it would still affect fewer estates than when the cap was at $675K, not more, as you stated). The exemption last year was $1.5M. In 2010, there is a one year repeal. In 2011, it will be $1M. After 2011, the exemption is likely to go up substantially. Your figures from 2000 (which you got wrong in every aspect) have no bearing or relevance on this discussion today.
You also completely missed the point that widows don’t pay an Estate Tax at all, so no, you will not and have not found examples of widows having to sell anything to pay an Estate Tax.
I am going to accept your statement at face value. However, two points:
You invested $2500, which included the associated risk of loosing said $2500. Most American’s would rather have the warm assurance of a 62 inch plasma TV. DO you have a problem being rewarded for your delayed gratification?
Are you telling me that all you did was invest $2500, and four years later you are work 2.5-3 M, with none of the 80-100 hour weeks normally associated with a startup? I know that I work more than anyone I know with a wage job, and have for the entire 2 year period since I started my business. I safely average 65-70 hours/week. I all you did was drop some cash, I can assure you this was an extraordinary situation.
I am not saying this means that estate taxes should not be paid, I agree with them when properly applied. However, don’t add the the collectivist myth that wealth comes luck, with no work, significant investment or foresight involved. I am sure this happens occasionally, I have never seen it with my own eyes.
Quit pretending that there is some sort of dichotomy between democrats and republicans when it comes to spending. Both spend like drunken sailors. I know if gives you a warm fuzzy feeling, but neither party has any intent of developing a balanced budget. If you are a democrat, you are equally culpable.
Please feel free to come back when you want to discuss a constitutional amendment require a balanced budget and preventing deficit spending.
It takes no more work to “invest” in something than it does to bet money on the ponies. The fact is that the richest Americans get that way by exploiting the production of the working class (and stiffing them on their wages), by inheritance and by the fact that wealth multiplies itself once it’s at a certain level. Investment after a certain level is not risky at all.
The class that works the hardest is becoming poorer and poorer.
I actually have owned two small businesses. I missed that you you said net income. You are doing very well and should be commended. If you are netting $400K with 2 employees. I’d guess that you are providing professional services of some sort. it’d be interesting to see how that sort of business would be valued for estate tax purposes. Do you have lots of capital equipment or inventory?
The dichotomy is in paying for stuff. Democrats and Republicans alike will spend money on their favorite projects, but Republucans have a unique penchant for not ever paying for anything. There’s a huge difference between spendthrifts and deadbeats whether you want to admit it or not.
You are correct, I supply professional services. Very little capital equipment, no inventory. The downside is that when I quit, my business will essentially be worthless, as what I sell is my name. I could grow the business by hiring additional professional employees, but I would rather practice my profession than manage. I tried that and it was not for me.
Not to imply I feel I should be pitied for this, the estate tax will still collect plenty from the investments that I have made in other businesses from my “excess income.”
I want to reiterate here, my beef is not with taxes, it is how the money is spent and the fact that about 50% of the population does not contribute anything. I would like a minimum federal tax bracket of 3-5%, even for those below the poverty line. Tax credits (negative taxes) are an abomination. Everyone should have incentive to support responsible government spending.
Did you look at the budget for last 2009 and 2010? Regardless of whom is to blame for the economy, democrats are in control, and they are spending like sailors on meth. I will agree with your that on average in recent history (say 20-25 years) the Republicans have been a worse that the Democrats with respect deficit spending. However, just because Pol Pot was worse than Stalin does not mean that I am supporting Stalin.
We need a new party of moderate libertarians (social liberals and fiscal conservatives). I am not talking about the nut-job no government libertarians we have now. I am not holding my breath.
Seriously, assuming you are a Democrat, and you acknowledge that they are spendthrifts, why do you support them?
Spoken like a true collectivist who knows nothing of investing or business operations. While you can invest with no work, it generally results in turning 2 million to 1 million. When I was young and stupid, I dreamed of becoming the boss; playing golf all day while my minions made me money. However, having been one of the owners of a $50 million/year revenue business, now running my own (100% ownership) small business and managing a large investment portfolio, I have found that the average investor class works much, much harder then the average wage earners. They are also much more stressed the the average wage earners. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are exceptions.
I have no problem with this, I have been rewarded for my work. However, it certainly pissed me off when uninformed individuals let me know that my success was simply handed to me. The 15 years I scrapped and saved to make the investments that led to ownership in a $50 million/year company is discounted, as is my education, rational lifestyle decisions and 80 hour weeks. I guess I should have moved to a larger home, more expensive cars, spent the weekends drunk and/or stoned and taken vacations along with my peers instead. I am sure I still would still have fallen into my current position somehow.
I apologize if you are not a collectivist. But given the you support a “wealth cap” I cannot figure a better one-word identifier for your economic positions.
I am curious, what is your educational level and what do you do for a living, generally speaking? What is your experience in owning or operating large businesses?
I don’t know what a collectivist is, but my leanings fall along the lines of the socialist democracies in Europe.
I have a BA. I’m a habilitation counsellor for people with disabilities. I previously worked in a variety of capacities in elementary education (mostly with LD kids, but have also taught 2nd grade for a year). Before that, I was a cook, before that, the Navy.
I have never had anything to do with owning or operating any sized business, but I have occasionlly considered starting up a small bistro.
A noble calling. My wife had a similar job for 17 tears prior to coming to work with me two years ago as the office manager. She started working as an residential counselor at an orphanage.
While I do not believe that you have to operate a business in order to offer valid criticism regrading how businesses operate and tax issues, I do ask that you consider walking in others shoes before offering up a comments such as the one regarding the efforts (and risk) involved in investing vs betting at the race track.
Wiki: Collectivism is a term used to describe any moral, political, or social outlook, that emphasizes the interdependence of every human in some collective group and the priority of group goals over individual goals.
It is my opinion that socialist democracies are like never allowing you kids to leave the house and live on their own. It results in crippled kids that never reach their full potential. OTOH, it does prevent train wrecks for the less able kids.
I guess I have to admit that I am willing to sacrifice the less abled to allow the more abled to reach their full potential. One could say this makes me an ass, and I could understand that attitude. OTOH, I fully support a government ensuring a level playing field for everyone with respect to education, enforcement of laws and access to opportunity.
I don’t have any belief in the priority of “group goals.” I have a belief in the responsibility of the state to try to facilitate a level playing field and to protect the interests of individuals from the interests of predatory capitalism.
Well, that’s one we can agree on depending on you definition of predatory capitalism. I would quickly define that as any business practice that is not fully transparent to both parties and where one of the parties does not follow their contractual and legal obligations. I believe that prevention of these practices is a legitimate function of government. So do most other libertarians that I know.
Fuck your goddamed budget for 2009 and 2010. Did you whine about the budgets for 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005,2006,2007, and 2008? Did you raise taxes or cut the fuck back on your war expenses so as to be fiscally responsible? Of course you didn’t. It was free stuff for GOPers. You blew the hell out of the democrat’s surplus, and then burrowed us deeper into debt with tax cuts and off-the-records conquest.
Obama’s term isn’t over yet, plus he’s a democrat, you know, the party that didn’t unanamously vote against pay-go? I think he deserves a short term benefit of the doubt here. Instead, you’re all just whining about how horrible it is that the big scary ‘death tax’ can’t be permanently repealed as part of paying conservatives off so that they’ll support a jobs bill that might allow the economy to start to stand up on its own again.
Is it a core conservative belief that you need to be bribed in order do something in the country’s best interest? It certainly appears that way.
Squink, I am trying to stay polite despite the fact this is the pit and I do not have to. Have you actually read ANY of my post? I am not a Republican. I have not voted for a Republican for any office since about 1988. I have voted for many Democrats. I support estate taxes, even though I am probably one of only a handful of of people on this board who’s estate will actually pay it.
When Obama threw his hat in the ring, I thought he was an idiot. Why? Who would want to be president seeing the problems that were coming? He sought the office, he won. Its his baby. Welcome to the big time.
Yes, I complained every year that a deficit occurred. Loudly. Vigorously. I argued against the war at every step, from the point it became apparent one was coming.
Don’t be blind. The Democrats are just as much a part of the spending problem as the Republicans. The Democrats supported the war and allowed Bush to start it without a problem declaration of war. The president is not the Emperor. Congress makes the laws. I despise the Democrats as much as I do the GOP. Why do you insist on supporting them?
Despite what your leaders tell you, there are solutions to solve the economic problems other then spending out kids into bankruptcy. However, these involve financial sacrifice on everyone part, and the bottom 50-75% of this county does not believe in financial sacrifice except on the part of others.