Fuck The Government

[Palve]

Stupid hypocritical, lying, propagandist dance machines.

[rsa]

Sorry… too lazy to read your links. Would you like to summarize?

[Myrr21]

I believe the OP goes like this:

“I disagree with the government. However, rather than form my own well-thought-out opinions on the matter, I will recite what an obviously biased source has told me. In the process of doing so, I will lend my bad name to all those rational people who may wish to disagree with the government.”

Of course, I’m just extrapolating from a 4 link, 6 word OP, but that’s how these things usually go.

[Hemlock]

Out of boredom, checked the links. It’s the World Socialist Website. In a nutshell: there may have been a leak from the FBI/White House to the terrorists on 9-11; it’s all about oil pipelines; and the liberal media are kissing W’s backside too much. Don’t understand the dancing machine thing.

Next, please

[Myrr21]

Actually, I think the dancing machine thing was what I got the most out of. I’ve always wanted to be able to push a button and make the president moonwalk, and now I can.

[Neurotik]

Fuck the police coming straight out the underground…

Sorry, I mean no disrespect to any police officers on the board, nor do I condone violence against them. It’s just the first thing I thought of when I saw the thread.

[Typo_Negative]

[The Vandals]
Anarchy Burger!
Hold the Government!
[/The Vandals]

[Palve]

*Originally posted by Myrr21 *
**I believe the OP goes like this:

“I disagree with the government. However, rather than form my own well-thought-out opinions on the matter, I will recite what an obviously biased source has told me. In the process of doing so, I will lend my bad name to all those rational people who may wish to disagree with the government.”

Of course, I’m just extrapolating from a 4 link, 6 word OP, but that’s how these things usually go. **

Do you really want my own well-thought-out opinions? I don’t have much time now, so here is an e-mail I sent out a while ago:

John Doe < johndoe@server.com > wrote :
> Greetings.
>
> Hey there… I just wanted to say that I read a
> post of yours a while ago on
> the Straight Dope Message Boards – the one about
> how you compared all the
> American flag-waving and associated patriotism to
> Nazi propaganda.
> Unfortunately, I can’t seem to find those messages
> any more; they appear to
> have been deleted. Whether this is your doing or
> some “well-intentioned”
> moderator I have no idea. Regardless, I just wanted
> to say that I admire
> greatly your courage in espousing such an unpopular
> belief. Don’t let the
> discouraging responses you received get you down.
> The world needs more
> people like you who can see through society’s
> propaganda.
>
> You indicated in your post that you were a Marxist.
> I hope you apply the
> same scrutiny to the so-called “Marxist”
> organiziations as you do to the
> capitalists’ claims. There are many political
> groups out there that are
> particularly fond of putting words in Marx’s mouth
> – not that everything
> Marx said should be treated dogmatically, anyway.
> The man was a keen social
> observer, not an infallible and unquestionable
> prophet. Much like Charles
> Darwin, he simply described how the world worked,
> much to the chagrin of
> those who benefitted from the existing
> misconceptions.
>
> Anyway, I’d have loved to address the more salient
> points of your post, but
> as it appears to be gone for good, this will have to
> suffice. Hope to hear
> more from you on the SDMB.
>
> Regards,
> (NAME DELETED)

Thank you for your reply.

I am a Marxist in the sense that I have read Marx’s and Engels’ writings and believe that their points are valid, but there are a few things one must remember.

Firstly, that their writings were written in the context of the mid-nineteenth century. It is now a century and a half later, and things have changed. In that period of time, certain movements have ousted the laissez-faire capitalist system for a somewhat more humane system. It is thus unwise to take literally and dogmatically anything either of them have said. In fact, over their lives, one can see that they changed their minds about certain things, especially concerning the nature of state and society.

Secondly, that the vast majority of so-called “Marxist” governments were/are in reality not Marxists and have tarnished the names of “communism” and “socialism” so that we Marxists have to refer to ourselves as “Marxists” instead of socialists or communists, to keep from being confused with the dictatorial régimes of the twentieth century.

Thirdly, that even today most “Marxists” don’t have a clear grasp of Marxism. Marxist-Leninists are an oxymoron. For example, their vanguardist approach to social revolution contradicts Marx’s theory that only when the proletariat realizes its oppression will it be able to overthrow the bourgeoisie and establish any type of socialist society. Of course, other “Marxists” are those who skimmed the Communist Manifesto and simply pretend to understand it, without going deeper into the details behind the revolution or the conditions that brought about the capitalist economic system, or the relation between labor and capital, all of which Marx and Engels delicately describe. Such people are usually in it for the rebellious feeling only pseudo-extremism can bring about.

Fourthly, that socialism means true equality, i.e. the abolition of the hierarchy and all personal property. Many “Marxists” set up hierarchical organizations and many “Marxist” régimes kept the idea of currency (a form of personal property). Most “Marxist” organizations today have some sort of internal hierarchy. Many of these organizations apply propaganda similar to what is done in the capitalist organizations. They idolize their leaders, stick dogmatically to their exaggerated claims, and rarely if ever change their minds about anything. The ideal Marxist organization would not idolize any leader (because there would be no leader), make claims only backed with evidence, realize that its principles are not perfect and that it does not have a monopoly on the truth, and change its principles based on any evidence or logical arguments that may crop up.

It is for these reasons that I have recognized no organization that I have run across to be Marxist and have thus steered clear of these organizations. I have left the social analysis up to myself, by studying history through books and current events through the media and attempting to filter out the propaganda present. It is through such analysis that I discovered a surprising amount of propaganda. Just look through the average high school American history textbook. Almost nothing is mentioned about the social classes, the country always seems to get through its problems stronger than before, and the principles of “freedom” and “liberty” and “democracy” always come through. It is unrealistic if nothing else, and there are many things the books skip over that contradict these principles, like the imprisonment of Japanese-Americans during World War II, the horrible atrocities in Vietnam, and even the killing of millions of perfectly innocent civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki is praised as a “quick end to the terrible war”!

The propaganda disgusts me, as it should disgust anybody, but from the reactions in Straight Dope, it appears most people have been indoctrinated by it.

For instance, let us take the recent events in Afghanistan as a typical example of American propaganda:

The Taliban is a scapegoat. Certainly its policies could have been a lot better, but that does not warrant the invasion of the nation. The American government saw it as an opportunity not only to convince the American people that they were actually doing something, but to gain control of an important base to serve the US’s arrogant job of world police. From Afghanistan, a “friendly régime” (puppet government) could put pressure on “communist” China, Pakistan and India, the Middle East, the fledgling Central Asian republics, and further away, Russia and Chechnya. Perhaps more important is the fact that the nearby Caspian Sea has the second-largest oil reserves in the world. It is a strategic location to say the least.

Also, a little look into the not-so-distant history of the region can shed a little light on the subject. In 1979, the Soviet Union wanted to strengthen national pride and confidence in the system by invading Afghanistan (ring a bell?). The Soviets backed some Afghan organizations and they took over the nation, effectively putting it under Soviet control for most of the 1980s. The US did not want the Soviet Union to have control of this region, so it backed an anti-Soviet organization in Afghanistan, which was called the Taliban. It is because of American funds that the Taliban took control of the country in the late 1980s. Now the régime that was once backed by the US is not being the militant pro-US puppet government the Americans thought they paid for, which is yet another reason for the American invasion of Afghanistan.

Why then, do the US politicians claim it to be just a retaliation against terrorism? Because nowadays, every American show of military aggression needs a “trigger event”, something real or fake that makes the American public despise the enemy. It is intended to be a justification of the aggression as well as the air that inflates the balloon of nationalism. In the Pacific during World War II, it was Pearl Harbor. During the Vietnam War, it was the staged Gulf of Tonkin incident. Here, it is the destruction of the World Trade Center.

By marching behind the trigger event, the American government has cleverly accomplished three things. It has increased nationalism, justified the invasion of Afghanistan in the public’s eye, and provides a huge anti-terrorist sentiment that can justify future shows of aggression. The third point is crucial: now that “communism” has collapsed, the government needs a new excuse to do whatever it wants. It can now pass anti-terrorism legislature and blame many, many problems on terrorism. It can and will justify the deportation of immigrants, the crackdown on individual privacy, and perhaps more incursions into places like Chechnya, Iraq, and Cuba.

Now you see that the government is not spending huge amounts of money in Afghanistan to banish “terrorism” and “inequality” but rather for personal gain.

By a little analysis of history and past trends as well as the garb we are being fed, we can filter out the propaganda and get to the real motives behind current events. Almost everything that governments do today is out of greed, covered in a tasty icing of propaganda. It appears chocolate on the outside, but the bitter coconut taste lies within. Do not just look. Take a bite of the cake.

-Palve

[Typo_Negative]

OK.

<<backing away slooowwlly>>

[Hemlock]

Err… Yup.

• What’s wrong with coconut, anyway?*

[Spiny_Norman]

• too bad, but thank you for playing.

The US did not want the Soviet Union to have control of this region, so it backed an anti-Soviet organization in Afghanistan, which was called the Taliban. It is because of American funds that the Taliban took control of the country in the late 1980s.

The Talib first appeared in Kandahar in 1994 and emerged victorious after a civil war with the then-ruling Gvt. in 1996.

IOW, the Talib were not left in control when the Red Army withdrew in february 1989, because they didn’t exist at the time. The US did not support the Taliban against the Soviets during the occupation, for the same reason.

The US supported several Mujahideen organizations with weapons and funds, and some of them later turned into the Taliban.

I know anti-US people would consider it a delightful irony if the US had indeed supported the Talib, but it’s a daydream.

S. Norman

[Gary_Kumquat]

OK, Spiny Norman has beaten me to the analysis of your understanding of Afghan history. A quick question on your knowledge of military tactics.

*Originally posted by Palve *
**From Afghanistan, a “friendly régime” (puppet government) could put pressure on “communist” China, Pakistan and India, the Middle East, the fledgling Central Asian republics, and further away, Russia and Chechnya. **

Care to explain how a puppet government controlled Afghanistan (population 27 million, military might - limited) could put pressure on China (pop 1.3 billion, nuclear power) Pakistan (pop 144 milion, nuclear power) or India (pop 1 billion, nuclear power).

And please - no more trite crap about ‘biting the cake’. There’s enough clichéd imagery in the world as there is.

[Tokiwoki]

Nah, I don’t think the government sucks. Are you one of those people who complains about taxes and then takes police protection, public education, and paved roads for granted? Or are you one of those people feeding their children with welfare checks ranting about how the government never gives you anything?

[Captain_Amazing]

*Originally posted by Myrr21 *
**Actually, I think the dancing machine thing was what I got the most out of. I’ve always wanted to be able to push a button and make the president moonwalk, and now I can. **

See, and that’s why Gore should have been president. It’s a lot more fun watching him try to dance.

[Captain_Amazing]

*Originally posted by Palve *
and even the killing of millions of perfectly innocent civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki is praised as a “quick end to the terrible war”!

I think you’ve pretty drastically inflated the casualties there, and in fact, I don’t believe either city actually had a population of a million people in 1945. Most death estimates give the amount dead in Hiroshima as 20,000 directly from the bomb blast, and an additional 20-30k afterwards. I don’t have the number of deaths at Nagasaki, but it’s drastically less than a million. Of course, any civilian deaths in war, especially of the magnitude caused by those bombings, is terrible, but you don’t help your argument by inflating figures like that.

I like coconut cake.

[Ferrous]

Gosh, Palve, you started off so well, with a nice little essay about Marxism, thinking for one’s self, examining evidence, etc…Then you ended up spewing tired left-wing anti-American propaganda, engaging in the same behavior you claim to despise.

**…every American show of military aggression needs a “trigger event”, something real or fake that makes the American public despise the enemy. It is intended to be a justification of the aggression as well as the air that inflates the balloon of nationalism. In the Pacific during World War II, it was Pearl Harbor.

**
This is patently absurd. The Japanese Imperial fleet attacked a US military base in an attempt to cripple our naval power and further their expansionist ambitions in the Pacific. We had every right to defend ourselves.

Well, okay, I suppose it’s fair to say that that was a “trigger event” that “justified our aggression”, blah blah blah, but it’s NOT kosher to imply that the US somehow engineered the event because it wanted to go to war with Japan. It was rather the other way around. When you are attacked with deadly force, you have the options of fighting back with all necessary force, or rolling over and dying. We chose the former.

[Hamlet]

Sometimes you feel like a nut.

Sometimes you don’t.

Palve definately is the Almond Joy.

[Tranquilis]

The Taliban is a scapegoat. Certainly its policies could have been a lot better, but that does not warrant the invasion of the nation. The American government saw it as an opportunity not only to convince the American people that they were actually doing something, but to gain control of an important base to serve the US’s arrogant job of world police.

Well, my my. Haven’t we been paying attention lately.

The Taliban is getting it’s ass kicked all over the countryside not because we blame them for bombing us, but because they decided to aid and comfort the assholes who did. Further, they’ve been doing so for a long time. Enough was too much, and down come the bombs.

How on earth would Afganistan be an “important base”? It’s about as isolated as you can get, with no sea access, surrounded by nuclear powers (China, India, Pakistan), the allies of nuclear powers, and large nominally hostile nations (Iran). It’s a sinkhole.

…the killing of millions of perfectly innocent civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki is praised as a "quick end to the terrible war…

Your numbers have already been de-bunked. Exagerate, much?

I suppose instead that we should have gone on firebombing them instead? 100’s of thousands died in firestorms in multiple cities throughout Japan.

::Sarcasm::
What a civilized way to fight. Really, ending it so soon was a bit much. I bet we could’ve completely depopulated Honshu if only we’d been just a little more civilized…
::End Sarcasm::

Or maybe we should’ve just invaded the Japanese main islands the old-fashioned way, likely resulting in millions of combatant and non-combatant deaths, destroying the remainder of the Japanese infrastructure, and extending the war for years?

If you’re so keen on showing the US Gov’t as being wrong, go pick up a fucking history book and try reading it. There are plenty of things to rant about, but you’ve pretty much failed to point out even one in this thread.

[World_Eater]

Roughly 70,000 killed, 75,000 injured in Nagasaki. Certainly not millions.

[Crafter_Man]

Palve: You’re not the lead singer for MDC, are you?