Fuck you, Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor!

[Mr.Moto]

In this thread, Bosda made the following highly offensive statement:

@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor

Because I know, beyond any possible doubt, that the mercenaries doing these things shall one day return to the United States, & be unable to put aside the violence in their souls? That they shall likely turn to crime, as other soldiers who could not adapt have done, after other wars, & unleash the same violence on our streets that they have comitted in Iraq?

Problem is, though, he’s wrong. Veterans are, by and large, good citizens and neighbors, and as a group don’t deserve such scorn.

There are myths around about soldiers coming back from war, unable to cope, winding up on the streets and committing crimes. Veterans are a large group, so this does happen. But it doesn’t happen to the degree Bosda believes, and veterans actually do better than their neighbors who didn’t serve in most respects.

From this site, we learn that:

One common misperception, linked to ideas of all homeless persons being single men, is that of the homeless veteran. Veterans comprise a significant subpopulation of homeless persons only within the population of single men. National studies have found that about 23% of all homeless persons are veterans, compared to about 13% of the general population. However, when studying just men, 33% of homeless men are veterans compared to 31% of all American men.

In Greater Richmond, 21% of all homeless adults are veterans. Most of these veterans (74%) are not combat veterans. Like the national figures, 32% of homeless males are veterans.

From the Health Resources and Services Administration, we find that:

Homeless veterans are less likely to have served in combat than their non-homeless peers, and they are no more likely to have post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

And this survey of veterans demographics shows that, on average, veterans are better educated, have higher personal incomes, lower unemployment rates, lower rates of uninsurance, a lower poverty rate, a far lower incarceration rate (about half), a lower rate of confinement to nursing homes and a significantly lower rate of mental illness.

@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor

I cannot retract the truth.

No, the truth just doesn’t fit in with your worldview, so it must be rejected.

The truth about veterans and military members is what I have posted above. Your assertions, on the other hand, are the sort of vile defamation that gave antiwar movements in the past a black eye.

So go to hell, Bosda. You seem not to want veterans living next door to you, though all empirical evidence shows we’re good neighbors. That makes you nothing but an unthinking, unreflective bigot.

And this veteran doesn’t want bigots living next door.

[Captain_Amazing]

Veterans are less likely than the general population to include links to threads, though.

Titanic Safety Corp

There it is.

[Metacom]

A just pitting, IMHO. I followed and participated in that thread, and I was not a Bosda fan. The statement that rubbed me rawest was:

@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor

The young people you mentioned chose to join the actual military. Although, given a certain prison, & what went on there, perhaps I’m drawing too much of a distinction.

Sorry, Bosda, but Abu Ghraib, horrible as it was, does not allow you to imply that there’s not much of a distinction between the mercenaries discussed in the article and US soldiers as a whole.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

Didn’t Bosda make this statement prior to your opening your pit thread:

I concede, most veterans make the adjustment back to a normal life. Some, however, do not. They never regain the restraints of society. Most do, but not all.

It appears to undercut the meat of your pitting and the links therein, particularly since you are going on about veterans, and the original thread was about mercenaries.

I wouldn’t make the same strength of assertion that Bosda does, but I find the question of whether those with a different … character, constitution, motivation, what have you… become mercenaries as opposed to joining or remaining in the regular military an interesting question.

Without the explanation and clarification from reading the original thread, I would have given this pitting a 7, now it gets a 2. Buck up, though, there’s always tomorrow.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Hentor the Barbarian

Didn’t Bosda make this statement prior to your opening your pit thread:

It appears to undercut the meat of your pitting and the links therein, particularly since you are going on about veterans, and the original thread was about mercenaries.

I wouldn’t make the same strength of assertion that Bosda does, but I find the question of whether those with a different … character, constitution, motivation, what have you… become mercenaries as opposed to joining or remaining in the regular military an interesting question.

Without the explanation and clarification from reading the original thread, I would have given this pitting a 7, now it gets a 2. Buck up, though, there’s always tomorrow.

Well, yeah, some fail to adjust- but according to Mr. Moto’s cites, that doesn’t result in them being a drain on society at a significantly greater rate than your average non- veteran, which I believe is Bosda’s point.

[FinnAgain]

The Hells Angels were a group started by veterans who returned from war and couldn’t find any place in society that’d accept them. So there does seem to be some support that some soldiers under certain conditions can indeed become dangers to themselves and greater society.

[Mr.Moto]

Yes, and I allowed as much in my responses. But ascribing to a group the characteristics of individuals is the essence of bigotry.

[Cisco]

“You’re wrong about something, so instead of elucidating you, Fuck You.” -Totally in the spirit of the Straight Dope.

[Metacom]

@Cisco

“You’re wrong about something, so instead of elucidating you, Fuck You.” -Totally in the spirit of the Straight Dope.

“There’s no way in hell you’d be able to elucidate me.” - Also totally in the spirit of the Straight Dope:

@Bosda

@Mr. Moto

So I ask again, please clarify or retract your statements, for as they stand now they are an indecent slander against military members and veterans.

I cannot retract the truth.

Mr. Moto, you are a Nationalist, rather than a Patriot.

[FinnAgain]

Hrm.
From the quote you linked it seemed he was primarily talking about mercs and not soldiers. But I’ll mosey on over to the thread later and check it out. A few things though.

One out of eight soldiers in Iraq have PTSD

However, only 5.2 million American adults ages 18 to 54, or about 3.6 percent of people in this age group in a given year, have PTSD

You’ll also notice that right after that, they discuss that upwards of 30% of Vietnam vets had PTSD. There are at least 1 in 8 united states soldiers who will be returning from Iraq and unable to deal as well as their civilian counterparts.

So it does seem that, at least for PTSD, the rate is (not too surprisingly) much higher in soldiers than the normal population.

[FinnAgain]

Some more figures

PBS puts it at one in six, and says many aren’t getting treatment

Just 1 percent of the troops who had been in Afghanistan said they were responsible for the death of a civilian, versus 14 percent of Army soldiers in Iraq and 28 percent of Marines who served in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

It does, of course, also point out that troops who served in the Afgan campaign have a much lower level of PTSD than those in the Iraqi theatre. But, this does go to support Bosda’s (as I read it) original point. Namely, that soldiers and especially mercs would be coming back with psychological disorders which made it difficult for them to re-integrate into society.

However, I haven’t seen any statistical data linking PTSD to crime rate, so that part of his assertion appears to be false.

[Mr.Moto]

PTSD doesn’t have to be debilitating, though. I know a decorated Vietnam War veteran who had it to a degree after a combat experience that earned him both the Bronze Star and the ARCOM with V device.

He later became an executive vice president of two major steel companies.

[FinnAgain]

@Mr. Moto

PTSD doesn’t have to be debilitating, though. I know a decorated Vietnam War veteran who had it to a degree after a combat experience that earned him both the Bronze Star and the ARCOM with V device.
He later became an executive vice president of two major steel companies.

Agreed, PTSD does not affect all soldiers equally. However, It is definitely a problem. for at least some of them. And since more soldiers have PTSD than the civilian population…

[Metacom]

@FinnAgain

Agreed, PTSD does not affect all soldiers equally. However, It is definitely a problem. for at least some of them. And since more soldiers have PTSD than the civilian population…

You can’t exlusively look at the rate of a single diagnoses to determine if veterans are more or less functional the non-veterans in society. The figures that Mr. Moto gave in his OP are a better set of metrics for determining that.

[Mr.Moto]

Right. But you can’t go from that to asserting that they have a higher crime rate, or problems with employment, or mental illness. Especially since I have helpfully provided statistics that, overall, this is not a problem for veterans to the degree that they are in the general population.

[Marley23]

Moto (or somebody) - I find this cite confusing, can you explain it?

One common misperception, linked to ideas of all homeless persons being single men, is that of the homeless veteran. Veterans comprise a significant subpopulation of homeless persons only within the population of single men. National studies have found that about 23% of all homeless persons are veterans, compared to about 13% of the general population. However, when studying just men, 33% of homeless men are veterans compared to 31% of all American men.

In Greater Richmond, 21% of all homeless adults are veterans. Most of these veterans (74%) are not combat veterans. Like the national figures, 32% of homeless males are veterans.

23%, vs. 13% of the national population, does strike me as a significant figure (although granted that’s an opinion). And there are far more male veterans, I’m sure.

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

Pardon whilst I sneer. :dubious: :wally

[Mr.Moto]

There are also far more male homeless, and that skews the results, Marley23. My first cite shows that 68% of the homeless are male.

When you study just the male homeless, veteran status tracks closely with that of the population at large.

[FinnAgain]

@Metacom

You can’t exlusively look at the rate of a single diagnoses to determine if veterans are more or less functional the non-veterans in society.

Absurd.
PTSD is a debilitating disease, and definitely points to lowered levels of functionality in society.
If PTSD is more common in soldiers than civilians, it stands to reason that more soldiers than civilians will have a problem operating in society.

@Metacom

The figures that Mr. Moto gave in his OP are a better set of metrics for determining that.

Not at all.
They deal with the rate of homelessness amongst veterans. I should hope that it is obvious that many people can have massive problems functioning in society, including turning to violence, without becoming homeless. It does, of course, ameloriate the effects we might expect to see with widespread PTSD, but it does not eleiminate the consequences.

[Can_of_Pineapples]

@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor

Pardon whilst I sneer. :dubious: :wally

You really are the biggest fucking moron on the internet, aren’t you?