Interesting — though it still stands, that this is on the leadership. Because then it becomes a matter that he had already telegraphed that he should not be counted on for any Great New Society Deal type of proposal, but they felt that eventually they could bring him in, that there would be a point where he would not be willing to be “That Guy”.
Turns out, he is.
The pertinent question would be, “How many of those were there?”
Progressive or no, liberal or no, if you aren’t smart then you’re just not going to get the results that you want.
If me and Bob both want to kill a mosquito, I’m going to bring a fly swatter to bear because that’s smart. If Bob decides to bring a bazooka, I don’t care that he’s on my side, I’d rather let the mosquito live. I don’t want to get blasted to smithereens, find myself in a burning building, or have the floor blasted out from under me. I’ll live with a mosquito bite.
We just had four years of proof that competence matters. There’s a wrong way to approach any idea - good idea or bad idea. You need to get smart people more than you need to get the ones who will go forth and battle in your name. Sending Bob in with a bazooka just leaves America a shell-shocked disaster, with as much collateral damage to the people who live here as was applied to the intended target.
If your ideas are smart, your ideas will become law and they’ll stay law. If they aren’t, then you don’t want to have succeeded at getting them passed anyways.
I am not US-American either 
, but my opinion is that Joe Manchin will never become a Republican because he would be primaried and he fears he would lose.
The question then, supposing my premise is right, would be whether there is a Democrat that can primary him and win both the primary and the subsequent election. I admit I have no clue.
When Joe Manchin decides to retire West Virginia is going republican. It was the second most pro-Trump state in 2020 even though Trump lost some support from 2016.
Manchin is the only Democrat who can win there because he has ancestral support having been serving in different offices for so long. And even then his margin of victory in 2018 was a sharp decline from 2012 so it is likely I think he would lose in 2024.
That’s how Manchin himself sees it.
Sen. Joe Manchin: The Biden Administration Is “Staff-Driven” | Video | RealClearPolitics
SEN. JOE MANCHIN: I’m not blaming anybody. I knew where they were and I knew what they could and could not do. They just never realized it because they figured surely [they] can move one person, sure [they] can badger and beat one person up. Surely we get enough protesters to make that person uncomfortable enough that they’ll just say okay, I’ll vote for anything and just quit.
Well guess what: I’m from West Virginia. I’m not from where they’re from and they just beat the living crap out of people and think they’ll be submissive, period.
In today’s news though Politico are reporting Biden and Manchin have spoken and there is hope BBB can be resumed in the new year.
I take anything Politico report with a grain of salt these days because they are becoming like the TMZ of politics but this is the first indication in the news that an attempt to reconciliate differences is underway. I will wait until other reporters verify this. I didn’t think the White House’s statement on Manchin’s comments yesterday was the wisest move if you want to change his mind because protesters heckling him to his face only made him double down. I hate that he holds so much power and how he flaunts it as if he is a kingmaker but ultimately if a man doesn’t change his mind after being publicly confronted then what do you do. Earmarks were seen as corrupt in the past but is this the only way to get his vote - throw a load of money into local projects for his state?
I disagree.
The situation we are in now is an economic crisis hit us, then we gave people temporary help (in often spotty ways) that alleviated the economic woes to some degree, then coming onto a turn out of the main cause of the crisis (public health-related lockdowns) we gave people more temporary help and we’re in a period where people are getting temporary help and doing well. The temporary help just expired, so we’re basically now in uncharted territory as to what will happen.
So we have a choice to do some combo of letting temporary assistance expire with no replacement, extending the temporary benefits, or replacing them with something intended to be more long-term. It’s not safe to assume that option 1 will result in the economy staying as is, and it of course is not safe to assume that the best thing for the Dems to stay popular would be to choose option 1 and hope there is no economic and/or political backlash.
This is actually an argument FOR federal aid, because only at the federal level can you implement a policy that is revenue-positive in the states that are doing well and revenue-negative in the states that aren’t.
Sure, there are implementation details in the BBB that I disagree with - I would prioritize and pick a smaller number of things for longer. But the option of do many things badly, while worse than the option of do a few things well, is still better esp. from an electoral standpoint than doing not much of anything.
Oh I admit to this freely. “Never let a good crisis go to waste.” Haven’t heard a decent counterargument that the situation we’re in isn’t a good time to push through reforms that I think will be beneficial if eventually made permanent.
Once again - you have not presented a realistic path to get this.
It’s basically leadership’s fault this happened. They sent messages to both sides that validated the hardball tactics. Leadership is still afraid to actually plant their flag on what their policy priorities were, and simultaneously made commitments that threw themselves both behind Bernie Sanders’s 3.5T package and Manchin’s 1.5T pricetag. Then they tried to wish away the stalemate they created.
Although at this point the progressives need to just suck it up and see if there’s anything they can get from Manchin. They now have absolutely nothing to hold over moderates and it’s basically a choice of maybe some tiny concessions if they’re really nice or nothing.
Because in every practical way he ISN’T a Democrat. But keeping his sorry ass around is worth it to prevent Moscow Mitch from being majority leader.
I mean the situation we’re in obviously sucks but it’s a lot better than if Manchin was replaced with an average Republican.
The American Rescue Plan was a Big Fucking Deal as Biden would say and the Democrats have been able to nominate liberals to the courts.
It’s frustrating in this particular moment because it feels like the orcs are about to surround Gondor and the steward is barely trying to raise an army, but there are worse scenarios to be in. Really don’t know how the situation gets better from here barring a miracle.
And as mentioned before, there was the infrastructure bill enacted.
Yet the perception is if we don’t get the Big BBB proposal through then it’s all failure.
I’m not necessarily counting that for Manchin because there were probably the votes for it without him.
It’s a bit wonky because it’s possible the GOP would have blocked it if the Democrats didn’t have a majority, but who knows.
Not for judges, though. Some of those have been straight party votes. Given the closely divided Congress, it may well be that Biden’s most lasting impact will be on the non-Supreme Court judiciary and that’s too important to shun Manchin, demi-conservative or not.
Well, he’s managed to piss off the coal miners too.
When the bill was significantly more progressive, it was massively popular. After progressive policies were stripped out to appeal to moderates, the bill is deeply unpopular.
And you’re using this to demonstrate that progressive policies are unpopular in America?
When it was more progressive it was also earlier, when there wasn’t as much concern about the economy, inflation and the debt. Look at this:
In September, only 1% of the population said inflation was their biggest worry. By November that had jumped to 7%, more than race relations or climate change. The ecnomy in general was cited as the biggest problem by 16% of the people in September, but by November was 26%.
While you are there, have a look at the problems supposedly addressed by Build Back Better, and how those relate to what people are actually feeling. The stuff progressives care about is very different. For example, the gap between rich and poor only scores 1% with the public. Wage issues? 1%. The envirornment/pollution/climate change? 4%.
But a whopping 21% of the people say government and poor leadership are the biggest problem.
And you wonder why BBB has lost support? It addresses almost nothing that people actually care about in large numbers, but it will make the debt and inflation worse.
Accordingbto Gallup, here’s the top list of worries:
21% - Government/poor leadership
13% - Coronavirus
10% - the economy in general
9% - immigration
7% - Inflation/high cost of living
6% - Unifying the country
5% - unemployment/jobs
5% - race relations
4% - decline in religious, moral, ethical and family values
4% - the environment/climate change
The first one works against build back better, and has increased by 2 points since Sept.
Coronavirus ismneutral to BBB, but does play into the skepticism of big government that’s clear in the poll, as most people think government has at least partially failed here.
Inflation works against BBB, because despite Biden’s lame claim, eceryone with a brain knows that borrowing and spending trillions of dollars will make inflation worse.
Immigration works against BBB because of amnesty provisions, if they are still there. Democrats also suffer, since they are perceived as being most at fault for the problem.
Unifying the country works against both parties.
Notice how out of whack progressive priorities are with the rest of the country. Progressives want bigger, more intrusive government while the average person sees government as the biggest problem. Progressives want to restructure the entire economy and energy system around climate change, while it only ranks as 10th most important for people in general. Racial equity/race relations are also way down the list.
And you think the problem with build back better is that it is just not progressive enough? More likely, people started paying attention to the actual costs and borrowing, and as inflation and general economic uncertainty has gone up dramatically, they’ve decided it’s something they just don’t want or can’t afford.
Your biased interpretation of that poll is utter nonsense. I also think “government/poor leadership” is a problem, broadly speaking, because assholes like Manchin (and bigger assholes like McConnell) obstruct policies that would help Americans. Similarly, most of your other interpretations are biased bullshit.
You just can’t help yourself but interpret everything you see in the worst possible way for Democrats, and the best for Republicans. You probably don’t even realize it yourself. Might as well read GOP talking points. Your arguments are pretty much identical.
You realize that I’m debating with you, right? And you are mad that I’m looking at things from the other side’s perspective? When’s the last time you took the GOP’s side in evaluating anything?
Or is giving the other side the benefit of the doubt something only I am supposed to do? Isn’t it your job to support your side, rather than whingeing that I am not being suitably deferential to your point of view?
But you’re just posting GOP talking points. The way to refute bullshit, evidence free talking points (like your interpretation of that poll) is to point out that it’s bullshit, evidence free talking points.
For Christmas, I hope Santa gives Manchin dick cancer. Unprincipled, lying scumbag.
While I’m doling out presents, I hope Manchin and Joe Lieberman are locked in a cell together for all eternity while that song Backstabbers plays on an endless loop. And every year for Christmas, Satan says he’s turning off the music and they get 24 hours of peace. And then it starts up again.
Give the GOP some credit. They put more thought into their talking points.