Fuck you, Netscape

The BBQ Pit
1

So I’m doing this webpage and it’s looking just great. I’ve got a sweet kinda art-deco looking background–not a tiling one, I chopped up a large asymmetrical image and reassembled it. A bit tricky, 'cause everything has to match exactly, and I had a reasonable amount of trouble trying to fudge some less-than-well-thought-out original design. But now it’s perfect. I’ve added some mouseovers and a really kickass javascript menu dropdown, made the whole page resizable so it looks as good in 800x600 as it does in 1200x1600 (but the text and header stay printable without cropping). The code’s all hand done and clean and tight and the image file sizes has been reduced–while keeping them looking good–to make sure it downloads as fast as possible. Now that this baby has been hammered out, all the other pages key off it, so the rest of the job is just restful production. I’m feeling like the coding queen, here. I rule. I am the master.

Oh wait–gotta check browser compatability issues. Won’t be any big deal, I know all the tweaks, though I’m doing a much more complex page than usual. I can iron out any Netscape issues in a flash. So I pull up my Netscape 4.73.

Netscape 4.x: So, we meet again, Gaudere.

Me: Hey, Netscape. Display the index page for me.

Netscape 4.x: ::derisive snort:: No, I don’t think so.

Me: Uh…what? Lemme check the code. ::view source:: Oh, I see–I left off an </table> tag, so you refused to draw the entire bottom half of the page.

Netscape 4.x: You have grown careless since last we met, Gaudere. A child would have known not to make such a obvious error. You will have to do much better if you ever hope to defeat me.

Me: Yeah, yeah, it was a newbie mistake. ::ftp’s to site, grabs page, adds tag, ftp’s back:: There. Display. ::pause:: What the fuck do you think you’re doing? Why are you tiling my backgrounds?

Netscape 4.x: Have you forgotten? I will place the table background image in any table you place inside the main table. I know you really wanted that backgound repeated in every single cell.

Me: But I just used that inner table for text formatting!

Netscape 4.x: Nope, I know what’s best here. Screw you.

Me: Fine. Set the background color of the inner table cell to #eeeedd.

Netscape 4.x: No. I will insert a random block of that color somewhere in the table, though.

Me: Fuck! Now the background image doesn’t show through. Undo.

Netscape 4.x: ::evil laugh::

Me: That damn random block of color is showing up in other cells too, dammit.

Netscape 4.x: I don’t like background colors in table cells. I refuse to display them properly.

Me: Fuck YOU. I need the left cell blue and the right one tan, how am I supposed to do that now? Um…Set the whole table to tan, remove all cell color settings and I’ll redo the righthand background image. There. Now about that image tiling in the main section… ::feints left with a bgcolor, then tags Netscape with background=" "::

Netscape 4.x: Background=" "? I am confused by your bizarre coding. I cannot comprehend it. I am so boggled that I must display the main cell’s background image and have it show through to the inner table.

Me: Woohoo! Me: 1, Netscape: 0

Netscape 4.x: Ah, but what about the lefthand column, Gaudere? I am tiling the image and it looks like crap, see?

Me: Argh! Maybe I’ll just do an entirely different site for Netscape users. How the hell can you be tiling? The background image is 112 pixels, the table cell is set to 112 pixels, what’s the problem?

Netscape 4.x: Tough titty, Gaudy. I want it 114 pixels, I don’t care what you say.

Me: Fine. Make it 1% wide and I’ll throw in a spacer image of 112 pixels.

Netscape 4.x: Nope, still 114. Going to give up yet?

Me: Is it the navigation you don’t like? What if I take it out?

Netscape 4.x: While I’d love to make you fuck with the lefthand nav for hours, I’m still not going to display properly even with the nav removed.

Me: Fuck fuck fuck. What if I set the width for the whole main table to 600?

Netscape 4.x: Now I will display the lefthand column properly. However, I will move your cool righthand corner search box to the middle of the page, making it look like shit.

Me: Bastard. So it’s the width=100% that is giving you fits? But if I change that the page won’t resize to fit all screens!

Netscape 4.x: Heh. Not my problem, babe. ::makes obscene gesture::

Me: Crap. To get that search box where it belongs, I’ll have to make it part of the upper table and make the lower table 500 wide. But to do that, I’ll need to redo all those damn background images again! They took me forever!

Netscape 4.x: Heh heh heh. Gaudere: 1, Netscape: 1

Me: Now, why is there extra space around the images in the page?

Netscape 4.x: Oh, like I’d tell you.

Me: Hm… ::runs search on internet:: You add extra space if a </td> tag is not on the same line as the image code. Well, isn’t that stupid. Ok, I’ll fix it.

Netscape 4.x: Oh, all right. I will make the page display look marginally less crappy.

Me: ::shoots triumphant fist in the air:: Me: 2 Netscape: 1 Hey, what is going on with that search box? Why are you doing it on two lines?

Netscape 4.x: ::shrug:: Input box is too big.

Me: Ok, what if I used a variable-width table? Does that make you happy?

Netscape 4.x: Nope, I’m going to continue to make it look like hell.

Me: Fine, then, make it width=6. Good. Now lemme check it in Internet Explorer. Now see how nice the background looks in IE? Why can’t you–what the hell is with that input box, IE? It’s the size of a Pez.

IE: I must display my input box sizes as wildly different than those in Netscape. We wish to make cross-browser coding as painful as possible.

Me: Fuck you too, IE.

IE: Hey, you should be thanking me. If HTML wasn’t the most pain-in-the-ass way of making text and images look attractive, you’d be out of a job.

Me: I don’t feel very grateful. Fine. Stylesheets, set the input box to fixed-width courier, 12 pixel font size.

Stylesheets: Got it.

IE and Netscape: Curses! Now we must display the input box in a fairly close approximation of the same size, making the page look halfway cool!

Me: Hah! Me: 3, Browsers: 1

Netscape 4.x: You haven’t seen the last of me yet, Gaudere! You still have to redo all those background images without being even a single pixel off!

Me: Yeah, well, I can do it. I’m a zen Photoshop master. And I finally took my head out of my ass and started using guides for chopping up the main image. I will defeat you in the end!

Netscape 4.x: ::evil look:: Perhaps you will, Gaudere…but have you met–my big brother? ::cackles with glee::

Netscape 6.0: Yo. Got some code there that I can fuck up?

Me: ::runs screaming in fear::

Arrrgh!!! Netscape, you lick the sweat from monkey balls! Fuck you, Netscape! Fuck every last one of your programmers! And fuck me too, for not doing the sensible thing and setting the background image with stylesheets! Noooooo, I gotta show off my coding kung-fu and do it the hardest way possible, on the off chance that someone’s using some creaky old browser that doesn’t support stylesheets. The pages will look like crap without stylesheets anyway now, I use them for too much–Netscape 2? Too bad! But I’ve spent so much blasted time getting the background right this way I hate to completely scrap it. Netscape, I used to think you were all cool since you weren’t part of the whole Microsoft thing, but no longer–you just suck too bad. May your market share dwindle to the point that I no longer have to support you ever again!

2

Gaudere, please don’t forget to try out the less popular step-children of the browser world, such as Opera or iCab. :wink:

3

Gaudere, I feel your pain and I sympathize.

And this is one of the funniest things I’ve ever read…you perfectly captured the “personalities” of each browser! It’s been a loooong day and I needed a laugh! Best line:

Thanks

Fenris

4

Opera and iCab can bite me. WebTV too. :smiley: The audience for this site isn’t big enough to have a decent number of nonNetscape/IE users–I doubt I’ll get even one, and if you’ve got something working in both IE and Netscape it’s usually at least tolerable in other browsers. People will also almost certainly be hitting it from work only, too, and work computers are much more likely to be one of the Big Two.

Netscape 6 fucks up the input box, too. ::gestures insultingly in the browser’s direction:: I’m glad I’m getting paid hourly for this job, rather than a flat fee.

5

I just discovered this myself this week, by trial and error. What a total pain in the ass! And that bug exists in IE, too; maybe it’s an error in the HTML spec. Argh.

As to the whole post, thanks for making me laugh at the tail end of a very boring day working with JSP.

6

Seeing your disdain of my previous comment, I’m not even going to bring up Mobile Web forms, iMode or compactHTML. :stuck_out_tongue:

7

No offense, but it looks like crap on my Palm Pilot.

::d&r::

8

Ugh. That’ll teach me to leave the reply window open while I take a phone call.

9

Ok, so where is the URL so we can all bask in the reflected glory of your triumph? I can’t wait to see this masterful page on my Atari 1040 ST.

10

Eh, I’ll probably take a peek at it in some of the funky browsers. But I’m certainly not going to spend anywhere near the time on fixing any bugs in those as I do for Netscape/IE.

I have two possible solutions to my current problem, and I think I’ll go with the stylesheets; I have a another way to fix it without them, but it would require somewhat more attention to detail when updating the site, and while they’ll probably hire me to do maintenence, they might not always do so. I’d hate to see my tidy design transformed into crap. So no more impressive coding kung-fu, but maybe the best warrior knows what battles not to fight. :wink:

I must admit I’m somewhat surprised that a technical webdesign rant got any response at all. :slight_smile:

11

Guides? Oh, Gaudere! Say it ain’t so! (smile)

(Free and unsolicited advice, and therefore probably worthless: Design for IE, and screw Netscape. Anyone still using Netscape since version 6 is a masochist anyway. Don’t waste your valuable time and talent on a dying market.)

Thanks for a big laugh!

12

The guides are just lines I set myself to make sure I select the correct area before cropping and giffing the various sections of the background, Lib–the area I select will “snap to” the guidelines I made so I make sure I don’t lose a pixel off the image due to a hand twitch. It’s not like I’m using any wussy cheating program! :wink:

Unfortunately, about 20% of users (judging from my company’s website statistics) still use Netscape. Most people who want a website don’t want you tossing aside a fifth of their potential clients. Netscape does make you code cleanly since it will refuse to display a page if you don’t code the tables right, but its weirdness about table backgrounds is infuriating.

As for posting the URL of the work-in-progress, I’d have to ask my employers if that’s OK. I’m also leery for some reason about posting publically a site before it’s at least beta-ready.

13

Sheesh, coding by notepad? Thats like preferring DOS over windows.

14

The way I see it is if you’re trying to surf the web these days with Netscape 4.x and Netscape 4.x alone you’re crazy.
Screw Netscape 4.x … I loved it, but it has past away and it must be buried because it’s leaving a nasty smell…
I’ve been tracking the (slow) progress of Netscape 6 (A.K.A Mozilla) and I’m hoping that web page designers start considering it. I recommend (to ADVANCED COMPUTER USERS ONLY!!) checking out the latest copy of Mozilla. Please, try to help out the effort. However, if you are the average internet surfer, please… stick with I.E. and throw out that copy of Netscape 4.x. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.

15

Gaudere – I’d just forget Nutscape 4.7 (or whatever) all together. If people still use it for general browsing, they’re barmy. Version 6 is as close to W3C standards as they’ve yet got so I just find it’s better to think of v4 as a bad nightmare and move on. Life’s too short for that particular f*** up.

Do you know the simple (‘simple’ that is once you work it out) fix for getting the background image to *not * repeat ?

Excellent rant – my only pit thread was on exactly the same subject but no where near your standard.

16

…And the judges’ scores are in:

Thesis: 9.4

Presentation: 9.6 (but these two little parts of the screen don’t line up quite right!)

Use of expletives and bestiality references: 8.8

Making a BBQ Pit thread about a densely complicated programming issue that I can’t even begin to pretend to understand amusing: 10!
You just doubled my knowledge of HTML coding!
[sub]and don’t give me that 2*0 is still 0 crap either[/sub]

And because this is the Pit,
God Damn it woman, get the fuck outta the house and away from that freelance job! If this is starting to be the funniest thing that happens to you, I have my work cut out for me!!!

::entices gaudere into the real world…without a monitor…and with promises of Guinness and three dimensional people::

17

Last week I decided to try to make a web page. Now keep in mind that I know nothing about html, coding, or anything so elaborate. I barely know how to cut and paste. I’m an RN for chrissake, and the only think I know about computers is what I have managed to stumble onto while surfing the web for recipes and chick sites, and cool stuff.

I log on to geocities, use their crappy pagebuilder and with each progressive effort it looks more and more pathetic. I can’t get the margins even, but I am uploading and inserting animated gif’s, pictures and what not with gleeful abandon. Now my page looks like a cartoon, a chaotic mess with things crawling and jumping everywhere.

Someone suggested using netscape composter, which I never use cause I almost always use MIE. So I dug out my setup exe. and reinstalled it. Armed with some fresh graphics from a designer’s site, I began to weave my magic. Did I mention that I know next to nothing about how to use netscape composer either? Well I’ve been on the tutorial page, reading up and then trying to apply that wisdom to my page. So far I only have the background picture done and I can’t figure out how to get all the text placed exactly where I want without moving the other stuff around, but I’m having a ball exercising my cursing tongue. I think I’ve worked my way through all the modern languages and am working on a few of the ancient ones now, sumerian perhaps?

Now to beat it all, when I try to copy my work my computer gives me this.

And you think you’ve got problems.

18

Yeah, in fact I mention it in my rant. Just set the background in interior tables/cells to background=" " and Netscape will be so confused it forgets to tile the main background. There’s also a stylesheets fix, but there’s no point in using that if a simple hack works.

The Mermaid: Exact text placement is the Holy Grail of website designers, so don’t feel bad that you’re having problems with it. It’s clear that HTML was created by programmers, not designers, though the newer stylesheets features allow for much more control over text. I don’t know if the WYSIWYG editors you’ve been using have the features to make exact text placement easy without at least a rudimentary knowledge of the various hacks used for text control.

19

When I saw this thread, I immediately thought my own reaction when trying to validate HTML in Netscape 4.03 :slight_smile:

Hacks based on bugs tend to break when the bugs get fixed, though… I’d go with stylesheet solutions for lower long-term maintenence hassle.

HTML is a structural markup language… it was never supposed to handle the finer points of presentation. You can only use your pliers as a hammer up to a point, and then you need to learn to use your tools properly. Or in our case, wait for them to implement the new tools.

Thankfully, browsers are starting to actually handle stylesheets properly. Now they need to get XML working.

-fh