The thing (and the maddening thing) is that it’s not actually that much work; in Chicago this winter, there have been maybe 10 days when shoveling was required, and basically only one when there was a significant amount of work involved beyond the annoyance of having to go back outside after you’d come home from work. It’s just not worth it to pay the salaries of the thousand extra people on staff, and keep the thousand snowblowers in a garage or warehouse somewhere, to go clear the sidewalks ten times a winter.
So the city (and voters) feels it’s worth it to pay for a few days a year of snow clearing for residents who want to drive somewhere, but not for residents who want to walk somewhere?
Perhaps you missed the part where I purchased a house without a sidewalk in front of it, and the city installed one.
Perhaps you missed the part where your neighbors must have generally agreed that *they *wanted them.
So go demand that they clean it for you. If they refuse, ask them to cite chapter and verse why they were allowed to install a sidewalk without your prior approval, and why they should not have to clean it.
Please post results.
Okay, let me ask you this - why is it okay for you to recite your personal circumstances as a reason that ALL sidewalks should be shoveled, but its not okay for me to cite my personal circumstances as a reason why MY sidewalk does not need to be shoveled??? (and this apart from the fact that it already is…)
If it applies to you, it applies to everyone? I don’t think you actually believe that, do you? I tried to say before that circumstances differ and this may explain the unwillingness of some people to shovel their sidewalk, but this argument fell on deaf ears. I even went so far as to say, if my circumstances were the same as yours, my position might be different. Apparently that doesn’t matter either…
Homicide is against the law in all states. But sometimes homicide is considered ‘justifiable’. I’m getting the impression here that you consider that a failure to shovel your sidewalk is NEVER okay! So even if its not actually illegal in your community, you are still morally bankrupt if you don’t shovel your walk! Are you kidding me??! You’re okay with setting the moral standard for the whole country?
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Okay, let me ask you this - why is it okay for you to recite your personal circumstances as a reason that ALL sidewalks shoudln’t be shat on, but its not okay for me to cite my personal circumstances as a reason why I should be able to shit on MY sidewalk??? (and this apart from the fact that I already don’t…)
If it applies to you, it applies to everyone? I don’t think you actually believe that, do you? I tried to say before that circumstances differ and this may explain the unwillingness of some people to refrain from shitting on the sidewalk, but this argument fell on deaf ears. I even went so far as to say, if my circumstances were the same as yours, my position might be different. Apparently that doesn’t matter either…
Homicide is against the law in all states. But sometimes homicide is considered ‘justifiable’. I’m getting the impression here that you consider that shitting on your sidewalk is NEVER okay! So even if its not actually illegal in your community, you are still morally bankrupt if you shit on your walk! Are you kidding me??! You’re okay with setting the moral standard for the whole country?
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…and this is why I addressed my post to Meyer6 and not to SFG. She’s already annoyed and I wasn’t even trying to teach her to sing! 
Comparing SFG to a pig. Classy!
Well - this is the pit! Even if I had pretensions to classiness, which we all know I don’t - it just wouldn’t be appropriate here! 
sigh
No…just…no.
Cities and most municipalities decided long ago that the sidewalks are property you must maintain for the benefit of the public, wheras streets are features that are exclusively for the public. Ergo the city maintains the street not only because it is their job, but because they want the job done properly. They do not want your 2nd cousin who is ‘handy with tools’ -but never heard of one-call - to try and do sewer line work - they want either their own crews or a properly registered and approved contractor.
For the record, if I had to do my own sewer work my taxes would not go down. I pay the sewer bill through my water bill.
Seriously. This shit has been settled decades if not centuries ago.
In the city of Philadelphia I cannot think of any case where taxes built the sidewalks in front of private properties. Property owners pay for repairs to the sidewalks and new constructions put them in at their cost. Most municiplalities have also determined that the property owner may modify the sidewalk to their taste (different surfaces, a flower bed), but at the same time is responsible for maintaining it. How much this is will depend on your municipality.
Let’s get out of this idiotic mindset that public or private properties are some kind of absolutes.
This is a new argument. What SfG said is “the sidewalk is for walking.” What you’re saying is “The sidewalk is for everyone to walk on.” That’s a different statement, and it means something different.
I offered a crushing counterexample to SfG’s argument. So what about this new one you’ve offered (and which SfG has endorsed in a later post)?
I’ll offer yet another crushing counterexample: The street is for everyone to drive on. Does this mean I am responsible for filling in potholes? Of course not.
Again–I agree with the conclusion you guys are drawing. You’re just making piss-poor arguments while at the same time lambasting the very character of those who are pointing out the poor quality of your arguments. A poisonous combination.
People should indeed shovel their sidewalks. But it is completely stupid to think that this should be dumbfoundingly obvious to absolutely anyone.
A question: Who owns the sidewalk?
Cites preferred.
Does this differ from place to place?
Well, yeah, mine. 
(And others–the street doesn’t end there, just the sidewalk.)
No cite of local ordinances, but in my municipality, the sidewalks are built by the city on a public easement on your property. I’m not sure (from a property law perspective) who actually owns them in that case-- I suspect it boils down to “I own it, but am compelled to allow the public to use it in a safe and legal manner”. I do know that the city does all the heavy maintenance (concrete repair/replacement) but compels the owners, via ordinance, to do light maintenance (essentially, clearing the surface of hazardous/dangerous conditions in a timely fashion).
Wouldn’t you feel even a little bad if an old lady couldn’t shovel and the only recourse was to kick her out of her house? I mean come on, at that point I’d take a look at my life and say it’s ok to inconvenience me a little for her sake. If Lily lived on my block and didn’t shovel and I knew her situation, I’d be annoyed, but I would never try to force it. I’d give her a pass.
Look, I know you’re tenaciously clinging to the ‘if I even touch a shovel I’ll die instantly’ defence, but solutions have been offered to you to mitigate your risk while still being a good neighbour - either pay someone to shovel, or move somewhere where sidewalk maintenance is not an issue. What solutions are there to mitigate my risk?* Am I supposed to either buy a car or take a taxi everywhere? Or just stay inside all winter? Surely even you can see that this is a much greater burden than just giving the neighbour kid $5 once in a while.
My grandfather is 88 years old. He lives somewhere that it doesn’t usually snow much, but this year has been different and there has been a fair bit of snow. He has two hip replacements and can’t drive because his eyesight is not what it used to be. I worry a lot about him slipping and falling when he walks to the store to get his groceries. He’s still very independent (he shovelled his own sidewalk, despite our protests), and keeps up with his own homeowner duties. Should he stay in all winter? Should he be kicked out of his house? Why does one ‘little old lady’ argument trump another?
In any case, as has been repeatedly pointed out, shovelling the sidewalk is often mandated by a city bylaw. Obviously most cities feel that citizens have a right to walk outside, while they do not have a right to own a house without performing any upkeep. Why do you think that is?
*and don’t say ‘be careful’ or ‘deal with it’, because I will just tell you to be careful and deal with shovelling.
I would (and have) shoveled the walk for her. But if it doesn’t get done (and I can’t shovel everyone’s sidewalk) then she would rightly get cited and she needs to make arrangements for someone to keep it clear. She’s not getting a pass on property taxes, and this is a similar type of burden imposed by living in the city.
Okay, I’m pretty sure that my potential health risks were just one of multiple reasons I cited for not shoveling my sidewalk - but that’s the only one that you so tenaciously want to keep arguing about. And as I have indicated repeatedly, I already live somewhere, where the city clears the sidewalk - you’re the one who insisted that that is not enough. I keep trying to explain to you that your circumstances are not even remotely like mine - which is why you have no business trying to tell me what is ‘good’ and ‘moral’ and ‘right’ in my community. But you keep insisting that its all about you, your life, your situation . Where you live - not where I live! Apparently you have a ‘March of the Penguins’ pedestrian traffic situation in your neighborhood, but I don’t! Do you even understand that there is a difference here? And how the hell do you make the leap from not shoveling a sidewalk (where it is NOT mandated by law) to ‘not performing any upkeep’??
And what on earth does your 88 year old grandfather who shovels his sidewalk have to do with anything??? Who here is trying to throw him out of his home???
And how insane is it that I keep coming back here to argue what is essentially a moot point? :smack: (I know, I know - its the same reason that you didn’t actually ‘give up’, 20 posts ago - boredom and the lure of the Dope…)
I know you live somewhere where they plow the sidewalks. Great. That’s all fine and well, but what you are arguing is that people shouldn’t have to shovel if they don’t want to. If you had come in and said ‘my community plows the sidewalks, boy I sure appreciate that!’ nobody would have said boo to you. But you said ‘even though my community plows the sidewalk, I just want to let you know that I wouldn’t shovel anyways because I value my own convenience over everything else’.
Believe it or not, this discussion is not specifically about you (or me, either), it’s about general behaviour. Many of us have noticed that the jerks of the world like to not shovel and then make all kinds of excuses that are just like the ones you’ve made here. We *know *you don’t need to shovel, but you also don’t need to come here and spout stupid excuses. It’s the latter part we’re arguing with.
Try to keep up. For one, that part was in response to YoSosoth, not you. For two, the point is that we should all feel bad for the fragile old ladies (like yourself) who simply can’t shovel their sidewalks, or pay someone else to do it. We should give them a pass, right? Just like you would expect a pass on it if you lived somewhere where you had to shovel, because we should feel bad for your poor delicate ticker. My point was that in giving those people a pass, you’re saying it’s okay to force other people to risk their own safety in order to get out of their house.
I used him as an example because elsewhere in the thread people (including you) have said that pedestrians should just learn to deal with snow and ice, that they should just accept that they will be injured, and that back in the day you waded through 5 feet of snow and you were just fine, damn it! I was hoping you might realize that not everyone can clamber over snowdrifts or can opt to drive. If you feel that shovelling should be optional, you are effectively saying that those people should just stay home all winter.
Of course, by insisting that someone shovel their sidewalk for you, you’re saying that you value your convenience over everything else.