What you don’t seem to be grasping is that the reason sidewalks get icy is because people don’t shovel. When pedestrians walk on the snow, it gets packed and the compressed snow turns into ice. It’s not a big deal to walk through snow. It is a big deal to try and walk on a sidewalk that’s covered with ice (sometimes with a layer of new snow on the top to oh so conveniently hide it). That’s how people fall and break bones.
That’s why people should shovel their fucking sidewalks, or pay someone else to do it if they can’t. That’s part and parcel of home ownership.
Believe me, it’s an ongoing hot-button fight here. One of the major planks of the mayoral campaign last summer was better snow removal. My husband spent some years in Kitchener, and he complains every winter about how Kitchener has all the streets cleaned in 24 hours, and Calgary doesn’t clear ours at all - they scrape a little of the snow off the major routes and call it a day. People who live in the suburbs have weeks every year when they can’t get out of their community at all.
ETA: The idea of the City removing snow from the sidewalks - I can’t even dream that big. If they would just clear the roads, that would be enough for me.
Color me ignorant also, and I’m originally from Alaska, where we’ve got snow 6 or 7 months out of the year. No one shovels “their” sidewalks in Anchorage, except downtown businesses. The bike trails and neighborhood sidewalks get done by the city, at least where I lived. If they didn’t, they just didn’t get done.
So, (this is honest curiosity, not snark), really? The sidewalk in some places, even if it’s not your property is considered “your” responsibility?
In Edmonton, the City bylaws state that homeowners must clear the public sidewalks around their property down to the pavement within 48 hours of a snowfall. If it doesn’t snow but freezing and thawing creates ice on the sidewalk, either the ice must be removed or you must spread sand/gravel to give pedestrians traction. The city provides free sand, available at all Community League buildings.
The fine for not clearing your sidewalk if it’s been 48 hours since a snowfall is $100. Businesses are ticketed immediately, but homeowners either get a warning or a ticket (depending on the circumstances).
Every snowy city I’ve lived in has had bylaws about clearing your sidewalk after snowfalls. I’m not sure what the time limit is here, but I did once receive a warning from a city bylaw officer - both my roommate and I thought the other person would do the shovelling, and it didn’t get done. The warning came only about 18 hours after the snow storm - the law here is that snow must be cleared within 12 hours. We didn’t get fined though, and I don’t know what the fine is.
It’s really no different than other responsibilities regarding the area around your property. You can’t leave garbage bins out (or put them out too early), etc. Honestly, it’s not something I’ve ever given much thought to - of course you need to shovel the walk, people need to walk there. I can see how people who grew up in cities where there was city service removal (or where there is no snow) might find this weird, but if someone moved to a new place and they were the only person on the block with a big mound of snow and ice out front, I’d hope they would catch on.
I’m not so annoyed by the people who response is ‘oh, I didn’t know I had to do that’ or ‘oh, I don’t have to do that here but it’s interesting that other people do’. I *am *annoyed by the people who think ’ I know I should do that, but fuck everyone else, I refuse to put even the slightest effort into this community’. Like the lovely LilyoftheField, who has now conveniently disappeared.
When it comes to snow clearing, Ontario has it all over Alberta cities. Even when I lived in a small Ontario town (population 8500), all town streets–even residential ones–were plowed and cleared in 24 hours. In big cities, such as Toronto, it might take a little longer because there were more streets, but they were all generally down to bare pavement within 48 hours. Heck, in Ontario, plows roll when the snow starts.
Not in Alberta. I look out my living room window here at the street, and I see a foot of hard-packed snow with ice underneath. Our street hasn’t seen a plow since the snow started; and major streets only seem to get done after the snow stops–which could be a day or two. Apparently, this is normal. Nobody seems to understand the connection between clear streets and fewer car accidents; and people look at me like I’m some crazy easterner when I suggest that for safety’s sake, all roads be plowed and the plows should roll when the snow starts.
I like Alberta, but there are a few things I’d change about it.
Maybe you need to be in a world where you can pay one of your neighbor’s kids to shovel the fucking snow like people keep suggesting. It’s just not that hard to remove that particular possible source of an accident.
Sure, I can be careful, but I have knee surgery which has permanently affected my balance and a 2 mile walk to work. I can’t mince along at a snail’s pace if I ever want to get there, and I can’t catch myself if I slip. Should I really accept a broken bone every winter as just part of life? Should everyone with any kind of mobility issue be confined to the home for half the year?
To add to that, most of my route is along major throughways with heavy traffic. Slips into traffic certainly do have the potential to be fatal, as does having to walk in the street to get around major snow walls. So, no, “risking life and limb” isn’t an exaggeration.
And besides all that, THE FUCKING POINT OF HAVING SIDEWALKS IS TO GIVE PEDESTRIANS SAFE SPACE TO WALK. Fuck you. Shovel your sidewalk.
Keep in mind, this is a huge financial burden on the city. Paying the workers, with overnight operations at a premium. Paying the planning staff to figure out the routes and determine which streets get done first. Purchasing the equipment.
Since it’s budget time in Ottawa, and I am one of those who thinks it’s good to be informed if one later wants to complain about shit, I have in front of me many parts of the city’s draft budget. Those of you who shovel your own, be mindful that these costs would be added to your property taxes, because, hey, you pay from your wallet or you pay with your back. Either way, you pay. Prepare to be horrified (I hope).
Basic primer, property taxes in Ottawa are $3060.00 per annum for an urban single family dwelling assessed at $295,300.00 Our forecast expenditures in 2011 for “Roads and Traffic Maintenance” are 117,733,000.00 - yes, you read that right. That includes all the staffing / planning parts. What it doesn’t include are the capital expenses. That’s covered in a separate document. A salter / sander with plow blade for roads costs $270,840.00 and has a “life expectancy” of 10 years. We have about 100 of them, give or take (depending on maintenance cycles), and city staff would like to buy four more. Sidewalk plows, which have dual use as lawn tractors in the summer run about 33K each, and we need 15 of them. Other equipment is far higher priced.
In retrospect, fuck me, maybe I should shovel my own sidewalk! :smack:
Aw, Meyer - ‘lovely’? Stop now - you’re making me blush! It is so sweet of you to miss me, really I honestly didn’t think you cared! I wasn’t gone all that long, was I?
Sorry if I have neglected to keep up my end of the argument, but really it’s hard to whip up a lot of passion for an argument that’s well, kind of moot for me. I mean I can do it, of course - we’ve seen that already - but my interest in the fight tends to wane after a bit. Perhaps you’ve forgotten that I am one of those people who ‘don’t have to do that’, because my community does plow the sidewalks here. I just pointed out that I would probably be reluctant to shovel snow, if the city didn’t.
Which makes me a bitch on wheels, I guess. I can live with that - ‘live’ being the operative word…
My only point, perhaps badly made, is that I feel no obligation to risk my life for your convenience. I’m not even willing to risk my life to protect your bones from possible breakage. Especially given my own personal belief and experience that its not the snow that is dangerous (not a belief shared by all, I realize). Yes, the snow makes it difficult, but its the ice under it, after its been thoughtfully shoveled away that is more risky. Well…perhaps I would be willing to risk my life if you were my elderly sainted grandmother, but I have no elderly sainted grandmother! I have no elderly relatives at all! They die long before reaching elderly status! (Yes, perhaps you detect a sad note of bitterness on the cruelty of genetics, from an old woman who still remembers being orphaned young…)
And let me assure you - no elderly or disabled people walk my street in the winter. Remember? I live on a cul-de-sac. There’s very very little pedestrian traffic at all. There’s kids going to the school bus stop - I’m pretty sure that’s the main reason that the city plows the sidewalks - but those little rascals! They seem to prefer to walk in the street anyway, as it gives them a lot more room to run about like wild weed monkeys and pitch snowballs at one another. Kids are cute, aren’t they? Occasionally I see a dog walker. This is kind of rare - I know, 'cuz I walk my own dog quite frequently and rarely see another, even in the summer months. (Shall we go off on tangent about picking up dog shit? …no, better not)
I won’t argue with people who say ‘Fuck you! If you can’t do it yourself, hire someone!’ I could do that, I guess, if I had to (although those damn neighborhood kids still won’t take a debit card!). But if the city did not plow my sidewalks, I would ‘probably’ clear them myself, at the same time and the same way I do my driveway - by using my little electric snow thrower. It’s small and takes a long time - but at least it does the job without any chest pain side effects! But if the power should go out - sorry, those two or three people a week that walk down my sidewalk are on their own! I won’t shovel. Again, however - it’s a moot point.
There’s a certain amount of perspective involved in this whole argument - probably true of most arguments - and my perspective is obviously way different than yours.
Well, you’re making this all about you, aren’t you? Fair enough, because my posts are pretty much, only about me. Make sense? What do you think are the odds that you are one of my neighbors? I’m guessing - zero. What do you think are the odds that one of my actual neighbors, has a physical disability and has to walk through the snow and ice every morning to get to work? I’m guessing, only slightly more than zero. I’m basing this on the amount of pedestrian traffic that I (don’t) see in my neighborhood. Those odds are considerably smaller than the odds that I will have a heart attack from shoveling snow. I admit it - I’m kinda playing the odds here…
Don’t compare my neighborhood to a major thoroughfare - I live in a suburban, bordering on rural, dead end street! Not heavily trafficked - not the same thing! And yes - in my neighborhood, ‘risking life and limb’ is in fact, a major exaggeration.
I sympathize with you, callous bitch I may be, but I really do…but I don’t live on your route. If I did, I would probably be a bit more concerned with clearing sidewalks. But I don’t so I’m not. So don’t compare me to a set of circumstances that have everything to do with your reality and pretty much nothing to do with mine.
Yes. It’s a burden that northern cities carry, that other cities in warmer climes don’t have to. But–and this sounds cliche, but I’ll say it anyway–it’s the price we pay.
I wouldn’t mind paying more in property taxes if it meant we had better snow clearing. For some reason, Albertans have a real hatred of taxes, though they have no problem paying user fees for what they could get for the same amount in taxes. Unfortunately, there is no user fee for better snow clearing. There are only car insurance premiums higher than they need to be, because of the many car accidents caused by inadequate (IMO) snow clearing policies. Like the man in the Fram oil filter ads said, “You can pay me now or pay me later.” But either way, you will pay.
A friend of mine is on the local city council, and he says that every time more money for snow clearing is brought before council, it is voted down because taxes would rise. Nobody seems to understand that if taxes rose for snow clearing, insurance premiums might decrease. And every year, it is car accident, after car accident, after car accident because the roads are not clear.
Bla bla bla. All of your claptrap about being a little old lady, and the $10 to pay some neighbor kid being an unendurable burden have all been addressed by the OP as non-excuses.
"I’m old and infirm can’t ask a neighbor for a little help and boo hoo.
Fuck you. Shovel your sidewalk."
and
"I only pay the plow service to do the driveway and couldn’t possibly cough up an extra couple of sawbucks to have the sidewalk done.
