Killing Moe would be less evil than killing Moe and Lenny. Therefore, killing Moe is okay.
Or, how about:
Beating your dog is less cruel than beating and starving your dog. Therefore, beating your dog is excusable.
Only non-vegetarians think people should have an internally consistent morality themselves before they go passing judgement on the morality of others? I dare say you slander the vegetarian community.
“It’s okay to eat fish, 'cause they don’t have any feelings…”
I’d say that your “friend” needs to work on her little system of morality for a while before trying to impose it on anyone else. I am (mostly) a vegetarian, but then I don’t eat meat because I don’t like it and I don’t think it’s all that healthy. I will occasionally eat fish if I’m lacking protein. I eat eggs and dairy products and I buy meat for my family, and I do try to buy these products from farms that treat their animals humanely. But I never, ever tell anyone else what they should or should not be eating (unless, of course, they ask or I’m their mother).
You’re making the wrong comparison. The vegetarian is concerned with their own diet, not the diet of others. If I cut meat out of my diet but not fish, the “death toll” as you call it is reduced compared to my diet if I don’t cut out anything at all. Not as much as if I cut meat and fish out of my diet, but still more than if I don’t cut out anything at all.
Miller, tell me… what’s the internally consistent morality of eating whatever you want? Amorality is not a consistent morality, it’s no kind of morality at all. Before you get insulted, I didn’t say immorality, I said amorality.
As for your Moe and Larry scenario, say Moe and Larry are your two sons. I break into your house with a gun and tell you I’m going to kill one of them or both of them, but it’s your choice. Are you going to tell me it doesn’t matter because killing is wrong?
-fh
Sounds to me like the vegetarian who is actually being pitted wasn’t just concerned about her own diet.
Gee, y’think maybe that’s why she’s being pitted?
No, it’s still not reduced because you have simply replaced one kind of meat with another. Cutting out all meat besides fish will cause you to eat more fish, and the death toll remains the same. Why is that so hard to understand?
To use the hyperbolic murderer analogy that’s bouncing around this thread, let’s say that a serial killer kills at the rate of one a month. He preys on ugly people and fashion models - totalling six of each in one year. The next year he decides to cut out the fashion models from his repertoire… so he kills 12 ugly people.
That really doesn’t have anything to do with Miller’s example, which was simply pointing out the fundamental flaw in your previous statement.
If you (the hypothetical you) say, again and again, that eating animals is morally wrong, and then eat an animal, you’re being a hypocrite.
If you come up with a lame-ass excuse like “fish are ugly,” you’re an idiot.
BUZZ!!!
Sorry, but thank you for playing.
From the OP
But nice try.
Rigel
So, let me get this straight.
It’s not her diet that we have a problem with, only her reaction to the diets of others. Right?
Cool.
I could give a shit about how someone chooses their diet. It’s completely up to them. I’ll respect it, even if they say they recieved guidance from alien brainwaves. (It’s not that far off from some of the nutty stuff my friends have come up with) I’ll respect theirs if they respect mine. Then we can have a nice meal together.
I have a vegetarian friend. She doesn’t rag on me for what I eat, and vice versa. We have shared many cheese pizzas together in harmony.
I do think the “inherited” leather coat that she whips out every winter is a bit of a hypocrisy, but :shrug: it’s hardly any skin off my nose.
[sub]Err…no pun intended. I think.[/sub]
Look, this “fish are ugly” thing is clearly not your friend’s motivation, in fact it seems to me an ironic (and possibly pre-emptive) sideswipe at the perceived notion that she’s a vegetarian because baa lambs and bunnies are cute. So cut here some slack in that regard.
Also, as a pesci-lacto-ovo-vegetarian myself (I should start a IMHO “ask the pesci-lacto-ovo-vegetarian” thread), I recognise that I have drawn boundaries that some might see as “artificial”, but even the most committed vegan must recognise that in growing grain (for instance) some animals have been usurped from their “rightful” habitat (and some will die as a result). Insisting that this boundary is not so “artificially” defined seems to leave us with the choice of all-out, indescriminate omnivoury. or, a fruitarian diet. I believe there is a continuum of choices, and just because one cannot identify a “hard” boundary between points on this line does not mean that there is no personal/social worth at any of the points.
You paint a picture of your friend as a snotty, picky, vegetarian, and you an “innocent” accommodating fellow diner – what I’d really like you to do is print out your OP and ask her to respond, because frankly my experience leads me to believe that omnivours can be somewhat, um, “predatory” towards those with a more specific diet (particularly when they “hunt” in packs) – “Yummy, my big fat juicy steak is so much nicer than that rabbit food you’re eating, and think of the poor rabbit whose lunch you stole. Ha-ha. Hey, are those shoes leather? (etc)” is a not unheard of conversational approach. Ring any bells?
BTW, I should add, the reason why many have that pesci- at the front of their dietary-options is precisely because they are sick of being treated to soup or salad when eating out (or eating at friends, who might blanche at having to produce “purely” vegetarian food, but may be more comfortable (or merely more prepared) to cook fish).
I recommend that you charitably try to see that part of your friend’s choice as “pragmatic” or “accommodating” rather than “hypocritical”.
I’ve been struggling all week with the new wireless network I’ve set up in our house so my grouchiness level is set to “HIGH”. That might explain this:
When I read the original post my first thought was that she or others like her might be a secret meat eater. Think about it. She announces to her friends that eating animals is a ‘bad’ thing and brags about it any chance she gets. It is certainly a way to get attention and fuel her desire to appear superior to others not to mention being fashionable.
But why give up meat if you enjoy it? Why not indulge in the privacy of your home? Nobody will know.
I wonder if “public vegetarianism, private meat eater” is more common than even cynical me imagines.
Before any vegetarians go nuts (no pun intended) I do believe that most are sincere in their beliefs but there have to be some hypocrites out there.
[Darn this wireless network idea! Wires are better!]
I forgot to add that the ‘save the land’ argument is ridiculous because the oceans are being over fished.
I honestly have a problem with the very nature of veginarianism, but I don’t tell my vegitarian friends they have issues and I don’t glare at them when I see them eat.
This woman in the OP is an ass. It is as simple as that.
In what way do you “have a problem” with “the very nature of vegetarianism?”
Count me in as a vegan who would love to smack the OP’s friend for being an idiot and making the rest of us look bad.
This is of course now going to turn into a big vegetarian debate, so I’m outta here while I still have a little “zen” left in me (considering it’s 8:30 on a Monday morning, I need all the zen I can get!)
It was mostly just an example, TGU.
In my efforts to strike back at the few veggies who have decided I must embrace the wonderfulness of their dietary habits, I have formed an argument around the core idea that eating red meat in many ways helped humans to advance not only culturaly, but also physically - most notable in the increased brain size and intelligence, and that to deny ourselves yummy meat is to basically deny ourselves further development. While we are omnivores, meat is very important to the human diet and to avoid it is against basic human instinct.
Now, as I said, this is just what I use to defent myself against the rampaging hordes, and I honestly don’t care what you eat. I have veggie friends, and while I think they are out of their cotton-pickin’ minds, I don’t tell them they’re wrong.
Warning: This is not an opening to draw me into a debate or a flame.
Dammit, I was gonna post that!
I shot a carrot in Reno once just to watch it die.
That’s fair enough, you seem like a very reasonable fellow. Who could object to you presenting unsolicited observations and then nixing any further dialogue on the subject? I, for one, am quite glad that it’s all over now.