So, the Americans want us to adopt their immigration and refugee rules so that Canada won’t be a conduit for terrorist attacks against them. Pardon me, but the last time I checked, we were still a sovereign state…
Now, I understand your concern, and I am certain we are all willing to cooperate in increasing security, which, if you haven’t noticed, is not spelt the same way as kow-tow.
This whole “whoever is not with us is against us” routine is more than a little stale. We know you hurt, we feel for you, but you have no right to dictate what steps we, or anyone else, is going to take in the coming months and years.
So excuse me all to hell, but I, for one, am going to be out on the streets if my government starts acting like yours – I am not willing to accept the internment of refugee claimants, I am not willing to accept denying them due process of law under the charter because the big kid next door says if we don’t we are against them.
Yes, you do that, go out and protest on the streets. All my Canadian friends will just be sitting at home laughing at you. I’m sure we can all enjoy just one more mindless demonstration of people who have no real answers to problems, just whining and complaining.
I don’t live in a National Security State. It’s called Florida.
It appears that due to some lax laws in Canada, the Los Angeles International Airport was almost bombed at the end of 1999 by terrorists who had some connection with the ones on 11 Sept.
If some people had flown planes into 1000 de la Gauchetiere and Place Ville Marie, how excited would you be about giving up your national sovereignty and “harmonizing” your security procedures to ours, or have your Attorney General come to Ottawa to have our Solicitor General dictate terms to him?
I’d want to take steps to insure that our friends in Canada were never attacked again. And if there was some security procedures that I could improve without imposing on the rights of our citizens I would do so.
All we’re asking is that Canada do a little more to prevent known terrorists from gaining entry to the continent.
I sure don’t see where it’s Canada’s responsibility to screen people coming into the United States- that’s our responsibility.
And to say it isn’t, and that Canada somehow shoulders the blame for the events of the eleventh, is not only ridiculous, it’s offensive.
It was our lax border security with Canada that allowed it to happen, and it will to continue to do so until we actually spend some money on the situation.
Oh, uh. Bad word there- money!
Once again, we treat our neighbors to the North with contempt and arrogance, when who got in here for whatever reason is entirely our problem.
From this border friend, and this person alone, I’m sorry to see you involved and implicated in what essentially amounts to some childish lashing out on behalf of our government.
This garrison mentality has really started to get to me. We are not a colony of the United States. We aren’t even a twin separated at birth. The events of the last month have erased any doubt I had about that.
I haven’t talked with any Canadian who’s prepared to sacrifice our basic decency for fear of terrorism. Sometimes security comes at too high a price. I don’t think any of us want to pay that price. We’ve always tended to avoid dangerous extremes.
Personally, I want no part of America’s slow transformation into a police state. If the US is so concerned about security up here, fine: we should tighten security at the American border. Hell, it could help stop the influx of illegal weapons from our gun-happy neighbours to the south.
In the magical, whimsical days before Sept 11th, crossing into the US from Canada was not nearly the pain in the ass it could have been because the US relied in part on Canada to make sure that bad nasty people had not entered Canada in the first place. That way the US had a base level of trust for anyone from Canada entering the US allowing the vast majority of US and Canadian citizens to travel between the borders with relative ease. Now, that the magical whimsical days of the past are gone, it makes sense to have several checks on peoples identity; one as they pass into Canada, another as they pass into the US. It increases our chances of preventing future attacks.
I’m not blaming Canada (despite that catchy toon) but if you want to feel offended, feel free.
cough EXCUSE ME? didn’t some of the terrorists on those planes have valid American green cards? Hmm? Oh, I think they did. There was no ‘almost’ about that one.
I agree that yes, we up here in Canada have lax immigration laws. Finger pointing is childish. Noone’s going to tell us what to change. Suggestions are always welcome.
We’ve always cooperated with our southern neighbours in reasonable things (I actually agree with the govt in holding back on cooperating with the SMDI)
Hamish, increasing border security could be a bad thing for us, in that it would affect our economy adversely. Like it or not, the US is RIGHT THERE and is one of the biggest customers for Canadian exports. Cracking down on all people coming into and leaving the continent at all points would be the best idea. There’s a huge border to patrol there, if you hadn’t noticed, and synchronizing continent access control would be much more cost and resource efficient. Not ragging you, just pointing out that what is being proposed IS a good idea.
And I agree with the OP, the US govt is pushy. This is nothing new. Should we be surprised?
Well, I must admit, I didn’t see that one coming. Oh look - Charlie Brown said “Good grief”! - I didn’t see that one coming either…
The slurs “police State” and “gun happy” are somewhat at odds with each other, if you actually thought about it somewhat.
Well, we needed a good-old USA-bashing thread again. I mean, there hasn’t been a really decent one since before 9/11, so I’m sure a lot of people have built up a lot of simmering hatred over that time that they thought it wasn’t politically correct to express.
It’s a shame that we are such a terrible neighbor. Maybe the best solution would be to shut down the border security (US would provide the security and PAY for the extra people needed for people entering the US from Canada. And we’ll just let Canada handle how they want to control who enters Canada from the US). Have all air flights end and begin at the border if you are entering or leaving either country and then you would have to get on another plane under the conditions of the particular country’s standards. would be a pain in the ass but then Canada wouldn’t have to worry about maybe helping out another country. That would pretty much settle the issue and as far as what you feel are issues that the US demands, well just ignore them or declare neutrality. Step back from the world and just live in your own. It should work well for you for a few years. But eventually someone is going to remember that you are there, and they’ll remember in a big way. When that happens don’t expect the world to step in and aid you, when you evidently don’t have the desire or want to aid anyone else.
No problem. We don’t need your help. We truly do not and rather than hear your bad-mouthing and put-downs on how sorry and bad the Americans are, just follow the yellow brick road.
False hopes on our part. It still doesn’t make it any more Canada’s fault, our assumptions.
I don’t feel offended. How could I be? I’m down here, in the US of A.
My comments were made in reference to how I think Canadians must feel being criticized by our government.
I don’t blame them getting pissed at our arrogance. And if I were there, I’d be a little ticked that the United States was looking at me with questioning eyes.
Or the eyes that we should have done more to protect the United States.
But I’m not up there, I’m down here.
And from my perspective here, it looks like were trying to lay blame on someone else. Because, hell, we all know there’s no way it was our fault these guys got in. It must be someone else’s fault, “Howdy Canada”.
Conversely-
While the terrorist that entered the United States wasn’t Canada’s problem, the guns that travel north aren’t our problem either.
Your border? Your rules. But you have to enforce 'em. Don’t look to us to enforce your rules.
Yes, the US government is criticizing. But it’s constructive criticism in this case. We’ve just been taught a very expensive lesson, and we’d like to say at this point, “We’d not only prefer that this not happen to Canada, but also that it not happen again here or if it were to happen again here, that Canada not make it any easier.”
This does not seem unreasonable to me. I can certainly understand Canada wanting to protect her sovereignty, but like it or not, we are, for most purposes, closely interrelated. If the US is attacked again, and our economy takes another nosedive, you guys are in the dust right along with us. As far as the tade balance goes, you send us more than we send to you. So if the American consumer stops buying, Canada’s screwed too.
Perhaps now is a good time to put aside squabbles and make sure the continent is at least relatively secure. Then we can fight all you want.
I have no evidence to suggest that the United States would permit itself to be dictated to in the way that Ashcroft feels himself free to do to MacAulay. The relationship between Canada and the US has always been unequal. Canada has never had the power to dictate to the US in the way that the US can dictate to Canada.
Yet Canadian elites, politicians, and pundits continue to play on the ridiculous notion that the relation between the US and Canada is somehow one of friends or of equals.
For example, the National Post is the leading Canadian shill for the idea of integration with the US, and yet I haven’t read a single article suggesting that this new country would be called anything but the USA, use any currency besides the American dollar, have any official languages other than English, or have any gun control but the Second Amendment.
The US didn’t feel obliged to “harmonize” its gun control laws with Canada’s after the École Polytechnique massacre.
(And, I must say, if the Canadian government had had the temerity to make such a suggestion, let alone such an insistence, a firm refusal on the part of the Americans certainly would not have been tarred with the label “Canada-bashing.” I prefer the society in which I live to the society in which Americans live. That’s why I stay in this country. It has nothing to do with bashing anyone, and I’ll thank you all to refrain from future suggestions to that effect.)
Forgive me if this is a bit personal. Bagkitty mentioned interning refugee claimants, and Hamish tells me he saw the same mentioned in the Globe and Mail. I don’t have time right now to search for this (I have to run to work) but I happen to be in love with a refugee claimant right now, and I’m afraid for his future in this country. I have no interest in giving up more Canadian sovereignty in order to live in a society in which that gentle youth falls under suspicion, fear, and even more bureaucracy than he currently must deal with.
I prefer the society in which I live to the society in which Americans live. That’s why I stay in this country. It has nothing to do with bashing anyone, and I’ll thank you all to refrain from future suggestions to that effect.) *
Good point matt. We Americans prefer the society in which we live and have no desire to live elsewhere. As far as Canada and the USA joining as one country, God forbid. Each country has enough problems without trying to consolidate it all together. I seriously doubt that we’ll see that happen. Americans have no desire to merge with Canada, and I’ve yet to see a serious, specific article of that type come out in my neck of the woods. It must be something that Canada desires more than the USA. Even being neighbors there’s just too much cultural differences. It would be a major catastrophe to say the least.
As far as bashing goes, usually just called as it’s seen. Bashing is bashing no matter how you try to dress it up.
I’ll admit that I suspect Mr. Ashcroft probably lacks a certain amount of tact sometimes. But I haven’t been personally present in meetings between the US and Canadian officials so I have no idea as to the tone of these discussions. But in any case what the Candadians do is entirely up to the Canadians. the US can demand whatever it wants, but there really isn’t any threat behind it. Canada has ignored US wishes on Cuba for years with little consequence.
If Canada doesn’t tighten it’s identification policy, the result will be more US - Canada border security and cooler relations. But Canada is free to do as it wishes.
But I really don’t think the US is asking for that much. However I suppose this means you will balk at wearing the nice black uniforms we have made for you. Tis a shame, as they really are quite sharp looking! I mean really, what’s the point of having a National Security State without cool outfits?
Unless he’s received training in Afghanistan, I doubt he has much to worry about. We’d just like the backgrounds of folks entering Canada to be given a bit more of a look, many terrorists have a background of criminal activity.