Fucking computer programmers...

So where to begin?

I’ve just had to close shop on an Internet adventure. We lost our financing, so our project got absorbed into another division where it will be used as a client showpiece and research tool. If we had finished 6 months earlier, we could have sold out to the bastards that came to market and made a mint. Alas, we are now moving into a completely new area, that still looks promising, but it just wouldn’t be our site, y’know?

Anyways, our two programmers just left this afternoon to return to their homes and find other work. Now that they are gone, I don’t know if I should cry or celebrate. I have never in my life had to put up with as much bullshit from two individuals as I have had to in this past year. And to top it off, they are my friends. I can’t even bitch at them. Dicks.

I hired them in the beginning. They are bright, experienced, and I thought they could add a lot to what we wanted to accomplish. I was also helping them out of a bad situation because they were unhappy with their present jobs at our parent company. I thought that they were simply having problems dealing with the corporate structure of a growing company. Where I’m at, we have a few people and tons of freedom- maybe that is what they need to grow and prove their worth. Maybe giving them a job and saying “go for it dude” is all that they were looking for.

I was wrong. They were having problems with the parent company because they refused to work on any other schedule than their own. And I have sorely paid the price.

I am not a technician. I am not an administrator. I am the guy who accepts responsibility for projects and makes them happen. My goal in life is to move into the small business world and become an entrepreneur. If I can help, I want to, but if someone else can do the job better, then they should do it. No pride, no bullshit, just do what it takes. I thought that that was what would work with these two. I was dead wrong.

I worked next to them in a small room, sort of an office for three. When they were hired, they sort of took over a bunch of my responsibilities of keeping the computers going, organizing stuff, etc. I had to create a new role for myself. I had a bunch of time on my hands. So I looked at what was happening to see if everything was going all right.

The thing that first started to irk me was that they were spending a ton of time on the Internet and writing emails. So I started asking them what they were doing and tried to figure out how I could work with them, y’know, to get things moving. After a few weeks of this, I started getting attitude. Why was I asking? What good was it for me to put myself into their work? I didn’t know how to program, they did, so let them do their jobs fer chrissake. They only wanted to hear from the big boss, because otherwise it wouldn’t be “efficient.” I’d just be another unnecessary step. No, it didn’t matter that the big boss was busy, and I mean truly busy- how many people out there have bosses that work many hours a week more than they do? No, they wanted the word from God himself; otherwise I was just getting in the way.

A line was drawn in the sand. I did not have the right to look over their shoulders. I couldn’t comment on how or what they did. They were untouchables by any and all below the big boss. And he didn’t have time to look at what they were doing- he was busy as shit! Gee, what a nice way to justify doing whatever you want; set up rules that can only favour you.

I balked at this. I fucked up. I argued openly because my pride was hurt. I now know I shouldn’t have done it, not because it was wrong, but because it was not beneficial to the business. It was personal and I should have let it go.

Efficiency arguments eventually won the day. Now when they were writing emails all morning long, it was not something to be concerned about, it was something to be embraced- they are computer programmers after all. That is what they do. Who am I to pass judgement? I’m not a techie…I can’t do what they do, and they only have respect for others who can. No, sorry, the fact that I keep the office running, make sure all the bills are paid, the work permits are completed, the payroll is ready, the phones are answered, lunch is prepared, toilet paper is available- everything else is done so you don’t have to worry about it, no, that is not your problem. You are a computer programmer. You need to be coddled, caressed, cajoled into working. You need the freedom to find yourself, to allow your brain to be empty of outside influences so you can concentrate on the project at hand. Communication with others? Pah! Here, I’ll write a SQL statement and then maybe you’ll understand.

So the project is ending. Edges need to be knocked off, corners polished, etc. We need to finish what we have to fit it into another department’s arena. You escape the confines of the parent company with everything you wanted- money, stock options, freedom. But, please, we need just a few things finished- could you please do it? Just this once, don’t write the emails, don’t surf the net, simply finish the task at hand.

No? You needed to watch the Netcast of some interview of some tech geeks yesterday? You needed to research some new application of ASP+? Two days of work left and you show up late and leave early? I now have to hire someone else to finish your job? And I’m supposed to think that this is normal? I’m not allowed to bitch because you are the ones looking for work now?

Gee. I wonder…

Don’t you suppose that I would have tried harder to ensure that you had a job, IF ONLY YOU HAD WORKED? If only instead of bullshit, I had gotten a little progress?

Fuck you. Fuck all computer programmers. From here on out, I will NEVER hire you flat out. It is going to be contract work and contract work ONLY. You don’t deliver, you don’t get paid. You don’t like it - fuck off. I tried to make sure you were happy; I tried to make sure that the environment was supportive. I tried to bow down to everything you wanted. I got repaid with bullshit and slacker attitude.

No more. Times are changing. You are needed, but you are not Gods. NO email. NO slack. NO privileges. You break your contract, I sue. Big time. If you are here, you better work. I have yet to deny any days off…anything that is needed is provided. But for that, you will work when I say so. Not when to mood fits you.

So here I am, three shots drunker and a few projects short of completion. And tomorrow I have to go drinking with them to say goodbye. How can I accept all that has happened and not bitch? How can I continue with a friendship knowing that in the end, I do not respect these people and their attitudes? AAAhhh!!! The pain of not being able to do what you want because you know that two wrongs don’t make a right.

So I will drink, I will smile, I will wish them the best.

But they had better not ever use me as a reference. I wouldn’t force them onto my worst enemy.

Fire your programmers. Hire someone else on a contract basis only. Programmers are the whiniest bunch of assholes I’ve ever had the misfortune to work with. They will take and take and take and then leave you hanging. And for this they will be able to brag to other programmers about how they were able to get away with anything, because they are the Gods. Without them, the company couldn’t exist.

Yeah, right. As it stands, I got the raise last month; you are looking for work. You’ll find it, but as soon as they see how you work, you won’t get included in the plans for the future. Enjoy it while you can. But not with me, not with my company. And since you are only going to find short-term work, when someone newer, smarter, YOUNGER comes along and takes your place…don’t bitch. You had your chance to develop a long-term relationship and you blew it.

Goodbye.

Love how you sterotype all of us cause you got stuck with two dipshits. Why did you even wait? Any other company I’ve worked for would’ve fired em a lot sooner, instead of pissing and moaning and jerking off waiting for them to do something.

I’ve had the same experience (although without as serious effects as you had). Character and work ethic is more important than raw programming skill, IMHO. An average programmer that has a week to finish a job, but has a tough time of it will work his butt off to finish if needed. A really good, but slack programmer that can do the week-long job in 3 hours will *still[\i] take the whole week, and will probably do a half-assed job because he has to rush, since he waited until the very last minute.

Of course there are all different types of people, but I think computer programming lends itself to this type of experience, since there is such a wide variation in skill level and maturity out there.

Arjuna34

Note to self- always preview!

See what I mean about a wide variation in skill level! :wink:

Arjuna34

I thought maybe my wife wrote this thread (she fucks a computer programmer once in a while)… My boss has the same skills as you. The difference with her, tho, is that she stepped up to actual project LEADING. She has a commitment from on high that the projects belong to her. She keeps us aware of our deadlines. We report our progress. She NEVER has to look over anyone’s shoulder. Seems to me that there were some agreements, in principle, that should have been made between you, your boss(es), and your staff. That’s my opinion, which usually doesn’t count for much.

I would say you just got stuck with “two dipshits” as Modian said. They were your friends and (it seems to me) they took advantage of you. If they weren’t getting work done on time and to the quality expected, then they should have been replaced, friends or not. I’m a programmer, I spend time on the internet and writing email, but I ALWAYS have my tasks done ON TIME and CORRECTLY. I helped to get rid of people who weren’t producing, because their work then fell on me to complete. I wouldn’t suggest becoming so strict over it though. No programmer, good or bad, is going to put up with a strict work environment like you describe creating.

Personally, I enjoy fucking computer programmers. Maybe if the Big Boss had put a competent person in charge of the project, that person would have fired the two kiddies and hired real programmers. But, nah, you were too much of a pussy to do anything about the problem, so you allowed them to ruin your project. Then you take it out on all programmers.

You know what you remind me of? You remind me of the foul smelling juice that collects at the bottom of garbage dumpsters.

I should hope you would. You’re actually surprised that, after putting two programmers on a job with no form of project management, things did not get done on schedule? And you got a raise for this?

Those guys were too slow.

You need FAST guys who sit around and browse the internet and send emails and watch interviews with tech geeks and nevertheless get the project done in considerably less time than you had allocted for it.

In all seriousness, there are times when I’m doing a lot of what looks like goofing off, when actually I’m waiting for the back of my mind to organize the best approach to what I need to do. When I switch back to the screen where the software is being created, it flies onto the page very quickly. No one has ever had reason to complain that any software project of mine has been slow to be completed.

And…those guys didn’t care about completing their project. Sure, sometimes I don’t spend much time at the office on a given day, but when there is work to be done and I am at the point where I am confident that I have the approach mapped out, I stay at my desk, crank up some tunes and put on my headphones, and work through until it’s done or I hit a good stopping point around 8, 9 PM. Continue next day if necessary.

It is true that I don’t like dealing with people who have decided that it is their job to instruct me in what changes I must make to the software. (They don’t understand. I write the software. Mine.) But given the right attitude (which presupposes a willingness to actually use the software as an end-user would), I always appreciate feedback, feature requests, and questions like “Would it be possible to have it do this the way it just did that instead of asking me?”.

I’m not a God, I’m an artist.

**I am the guy who accepts responsibility for projects and makes them happen. **

To be blunt - it looks like you didn’t do either.

Correct me if I’m wrong here. You were in charge of a project, you hired the staff - and when things didn’t work out it was everybody else’s fault.

Anyways, our two programmers just left this afternoon to return to their homes and find other work. … As it stands, I got the raise last month; you are looking for work

Oh, good, you’re still employed. In fact, you got a raise. Looks like management strikes again. :slight_smile:

I’m sorry, it wasn’t until after I’d finished the previous reply that I realized I’d forgotten to ask the most important question:

Did you get your raise based on your ability as a manager to attract talented people, or based on your ability as a manager to get the most work out of them? :slight_smile:

I was almost going to apply for the job, then I thought I’d better read your profile.

Are you really in the Czech Republic ?

I’ll work there for airfare, food and a room, if I can get by in English, with a little German.

And I promise not to be a difficult person to work with. (I was voted Mr.Congeniality at the '98 Employee Awards banquet. :wink: )

Hmm. After all of that, wouldn’t he be closer to the fluids that run out of the little rusted places on the bottom of said garbage dumpster?

So basically to the programmers, you’re “that guy who’s always around annoying us and telling us what to do despite having no idea how programming works, and yet we don’t exactly see him do anything…someone is putting toilet paper in the bathrooms…maybe he’s doing it?” Yeah, the programmers are going to take over some stuff (organizing/running the comps, etc.) because it’s “their” environment. It’s like when you’re working all day and someone comes along and rearranges all your icons…Such a pain in the ass, especially if they tell you that the new way is more efficient, while you’re sitting there for 20 minutes trying to find the icon you want.

I’m not saying these two weren’t idiots, but keep in mind that when you’re working at your own pace (and doing your E-Mail in the morning), and getting things done in time (if they weren’t, then they’re stupid and should have been fired back then), and someone comes along and starts tried to use buzzwords and tell you what you should change in “that code stuff”, it’s beyond annoying.

It’s like when someone wants you to design a webpage for them and then tell you “no, those colors aren’t nice, we want this neon pink and yellow. My 6 year old son likes to play with crayons a lot and likes those colors, so we’re sure that people will like them more than what you’ve chosen.” If you’re paying a person to design your webpage, LET THEM DO IT because there’s a REASON you’re paying them. Just like programmers…They know their thing and WILL tell stories to other programmers about morons trying to tell them how they should be working when they’re way out of their element.

Anyway, I’m not defending their actions (they still sound like idiots), but keep in mind that programmers aren’t all scum. :stuck_out_tongue:

  • Tsugumo

I agree with everything Tsugmo said. Luckily I don’t have to deal with management on our project. And the technical lead is cool as hell.

That sounds like my job now. :slight_smile: And I finally found a comapny that understands this, and doesn’t bother you at all as long as your getting the work done. And when you get it done ahead of schedule…you have almost complete freedom.

Sorry man, it was your fault. You didn’t ask or demand the programmers to work the project with the same dedication as the husband-and-wife founders of Cisco Systems. In fact, it seems that you gave them no immediate tasks at all. You let them run the place, despite a lack of productivity on their part. You should have known that they were not self-motivating, and should have adjusted accordingly by giving them goals and deadlines to meet. You should have given them company guidelines for them to follow, and have them stick to it. Bottom line, you lost control of your employees.

I agree with this observation the most. We/I did lose control of them.

What I thought was obvious in the OP was that in essence, I DID fire them. I got the project moved into another department’s area, organized the change-over, and had the option of keeping them on working for the new guys. Which obviously I didn’t.

We did give them tasks, and we tried to give them easily defined roles and responsibilities, but if it wasn’t done on their time schedule, then it wasn’t done. So we got rid of them. There are certain things that happened that kept the timeline drawn out, and we kept trying to work things out with them…which is where we lost control.

In my defense: Because of having to meet deadlines, get a whole project switched over, accepting a new project that is full of responsibility, etc. etc. I was given a new role in the company. I was rewarded for still getting it done to a level of satisfaction, even with all of the problems and people. So N’YAH! :stuck_out_tongue: And you don’t have to be a programmer to know when someone is just fucking around and wasting your time or refusing to work with you because it’s not ‘efficient.’ I understand there are things that are difficult to get done when programming- I program heavily in VBA when making my spreadsheets and have rolled my eyes at my boss when he says “Can’t you do this?” But you can still work with people and come to an understanding.

Thanks for the criticism, both good and bad. I’m not God myself, I know that there were things that I could have done much better. Hopefully in the future I will. But the first thing is that I will not hire programmers outright- they will have contracts that clearly define upfront what will and won’t happen. That will help avoid these problems in the future.

Eh, maybe not. I wouldn’t write code under contract, and I know a lot of good programmers who won’t. So you’re severely limiting your pool of workers, and those workers who will work under contract may not be the best ones you can get.

I don’t know what the job market is like in the Czech Republic, but here in the US, employers basically have to suck it up. Things have been shifting the employee’s way here for ten years or so, and employers still don’t seem to get it, and think they can treat their employees like chattel.

If you’re a programmer, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD do the system testing you’re supposed to!!! I’m NOT paid to sit here and click on every damn button to see if it works. I’m paid to analyze the DATA and see if the 20 gazillion calculations we have to do actually WORK! And if I can’t run a fucking survey, I can’t do my JOB!

And then the QA team gets yelled at for holding up the damn project. ARGH!!!

Sorry. Been a big topic this week at work.

One glaring problem that is the inherent difficulties with hiring friends. You probably weren’t as firm and demanding as you might have been with someone with whom you didn’t share a previous relationship. We tend to cut our friends more slack, assuming they wouldn’t screw us. But sometimes they assume, hell, who better to screw! Next time, hire perfect strangers. And for heaven’s sake, stay away from hiring family! :smiley: