Fucking Salespeople!!! Help me to understand -- (long)

Sorry to resort to profanity. This is my first OP and while I’m rather new, I value this group’s opinion. Help me to understand my rage. Am I over-reacting? A control freak? My job is giving me hives. Here goes:

I work for a small “service provider”. Weve got a handful of sales representatives to go out and tout our glories and reel 'em in, so to speak. I work as part of the administrative staff. We have these monthly status meetings where the reps are required to complete Task X, an Excel report. I dont want to divulge too many details, put simply it is a report each rep completes telling of his latest accomplishments, etc. The point is this, Task X is required of the reps every month. For one full year now they have had to turn this in.

The first few months we began this, naturally, there were some learning curves. Some grasped it quicker than others, thats fine. I made myself available to assist them, as I am the person who takes Task X and compiles it into one large report to distribute at the monthly meeting. After four months of fixing theire mistakes for them, email reminders (remember to do this, etc.), answering the same questions every month [asked by the same rep even, apparently sales folk don’t like to write anything down] I decided to call a training meeting. I should note here that at that time they had no manager, or else I would have instituted his help. As I said, we’re small, so the President/CEO was acting as their manger. As I am the assistant to the President/CEO, that means that for all intents and purposes, I was their manager.

Meeting time: I had handouts, I went through the process step by step, went through each column of the report explaining what it was for and what should be in it, I instructed them to take notes and ask questions. After the last questions, I ask them “Are you all clear on what Task X should look like the next time you hand it in to me?” Nods, assurances, oh yes, crystal clear. Groovy. Because, I swear, if I get another email with Task X in the subject line from you folks, I’m gonna blow a gasket.

Ok that last part I said to myself.

The next two times they do Task X, they had improved. I was pleased, not nearly as many corrections, and they seemed familiar enough to stop asking me questions. I’m thinking we’re on the uphill path. But then two more months go by and they’re back to being as screwed up as ever. WTF??? All the usual lazy mistakes: columns transposed, irrelevant items, things that were on last months Task X that should have been taken off, 5 different fonts, etc.

This happened right around the time that we hired real manager for them. He had instituted some new practices, some new “attitudes” to help them stay in the “selling” mode I suppose. [They’re a sad little team, they’d needed a boost. We have barely 3 new sales each month between them.] Apparently one of their new practices was to shag Task X and spend no effort on it whatsoever.

Instead of beating a dead horse AGAIN with each rep individually I went to Manager, explained the situation. I offered to give him copies of the final product of Task X that is distributed by me each month, and copies of what they send to me. Then I asked that he pass them out to his reps and they can have a better feel for what it should contain/look like. He stated that he would be glad to hand those out, but that I should not hold my breath. He “knows” sales folk and they loathe paperwork. They are “People People” so reports and such do not interest them.

Please tell me that some jaws are dropping out there, because mine about shattered when it hit the floor. Who gives a flying fuck if “interests” them??? It’s part of their fucking JOB. Wah wah wah, go cry to mommy, I don’t wanna hear it. This ain’t kindergarten!

Interestingly enough, after he gave the reps their copies, they improved DRAMATICALLY. I mean they were near-perfect. I even sent out an email telling them how proud I was of them. [It wasn’t condescending, I was genuinely impressed] Then inevitably, Task X starts going to shit AGAIN. I tell Manager. Again he gives me “Sales people no like paper” and blows me off.

Next logical step, go to HIS Manager. The President/CEO. So we call a meeting where the three of us are together, and Manager gives me this shpiel about how he wants to make it less stressful for me so he’s going to personally edit all the Task Xs first, before they are forwarded to me. This way they will be perfect when I get them. CEO is satisfied, I’m stunned, skeptical, and wait for them to start rolling in. Well not two weeks alter, here they come. And they are just as crappy as they ever were. Far from surprised, I take a deep breath. I call one of the reps and confirm if Manager has edited their reports this time around. I am told that yes, he has. WTF???

Manager was not in the office that day so I sent him an email. I was polite, courteous, I kept my rage in check wonderfully. I started off asking what it was that he edited on the reports. Then I told him that with one particular reps report, there’s a trick where you have to layout the past 6 months worth of Task Xs to compare what has been on there already, and what doesn’t need to go on this months, because he refuses to delete ANYTHING. Lot of extra work that would not be necessary if the reps would just do the report accurately. But as I have already held meetings and given reminders to them, to no avail, this is the work that is required before it gets to the Monthly Meeting. Then I asked him to get back to me if he has questions about what to do.

A week goes by and I get no response from Manager. Then one day this week I get an email from one of the reps asking to meet with me to go over the Task X process and to be trained on the proper way to present it. Manager had apparently forwarded MY email to all the reps telling them to set a time with me individually to learn the proper way to create Task X. OH I DON’T FUCKING THINK SO.

So I rattle off another email to Manager, first of all addressing the first email that he never responded to. Second I said that one of the reps wanted to be retrained, and I told him that lack of understanding or knowledge was not the problem in this case, so I would not be wasting any more of my time doing so. It’s been 12 MONTHS since this simple 7 column report was brought to their attention. If they still fail to grasp the concept then we have a serious learning disability to contend with, re-training will just prove futile.

OK, turning down a simple request for information is not cool, and I would be ashamed of myself in any other scenario, BUTT, There is NO GODLY REASON that these folks don’t have this down by now. NONE. Manager replies to my email saying that I am confrontational and my “tone” offends him and that it doesn’t cost a thing to be nice. So why can’t I just be nice and make the time to retrain each rep individually? He says Im making a big to-do out of nothing. He says if someone is making a mistake, that means they don’t understand what you want, they’re not trying to be difficult. He says and I quote: “we should do everything we can to make the sales rep’s job easier” By “we” of course he means ME. And what I want to ask you guys here today is: WHY THE FUCK SHOULD I??? WHAT MAKES THEM SO DAMNED SPECIAL??? There are 20 other employees here who are written up for not doing their jobs, but OH not the Sales Force!!! They’re GODS GIFT!!!

We ended up having a one-on-one private meeting the next day in which I said I see no reason why they can’t complete that task. If they keep doing it shoddily, WHEN is the time to reprimand? When is the time for “behavior correction” or whatever other PC term you wanna use?? Manager says to me: sales people will do as they please, they need the space and time to be CREATIVE. Paperwork does not excite them, and it never will. It’s up to us now {again, the Royal ME} to just go behind and fix whatever they can’t do themselves.

PLEASE please please someone tell me this man is a crock of shit! I have never in my short 29-year life heard such inanity, spoken with such conviction. How can you explain them doing it properly, then not, then then doing it NEAR-PERFECT, then sloppy? They KNOW how to do it, they just REFUSE TO. I said to him: Look, I’m from the school where if something is assigned to me, and its unfamiliar, then I’ll keep notes or a checklist and every time I have to complete that assignment, I’ll make doubly sure that I’m as close as I can be to having it done properly. I’ll ask questions, and I’ll write down the answers and keep them with those notes. It’s called EFFORT. He says to me that I’m just overly-structured, and sales people never are, so I need to embrace their individuality. I wanted to puke.

I embrace individuality as much as the next person, but I EXPECT you to not be a lazy motherfucker while you are at work. We’re payin you GOBS of money (they’re not on commission here, it’s a FAT straight salary) the least you can do is what’s required of you. You certainly can’t SELL for shit, so you have LOTS of time to do this ONE LOUSY REPORT.

So I said my peace, Manager said his. I don’t agree with it, but at least I know I wont get anywhere by continuing to stress myself out over it. Do you think I need to involve the CEO in the situation? Update him on the happenings?? I mean since Manger LIED to his face and said he’d do all the work. I’m really grossed out, and exhausted, by all of this. Thanks and sorry this was so long and drawn-out.

“Sorry – administrative people are detail people. Being nice doesn’t really interest us.”

The manager sounds like a sleazeball to me, and I think you’d be well within your rights to go to your president. Explain that you’re unclear on job duties here: are you supposed to be the one fixing all the problems in the sales reports, or are the salespeople, or is the sales manager? Tell him that you thought it was the salespeople’s job, but their manager is disagreeing with you, and you’d like the president to clarify your job duties for you.

With any luck, you’ll get the sleazeball in trouble :).

Daniel

So, someone contacted you, asked for help on the report, and you refused?

Well, that doesn’t look real good for you if you decide to have a meeting with the CEO.

Secondly, um, aren’t the sales force the reason you have a job? You know, the company makes a product, and they sell it, and if they don’t, no company? Ya see what I’m getting at here?

Thirdly, the product you have is difficult to sell, and the sales people are probably stressed out about the fact that it’s hard to sell and they only get 3 sales a month, and you’re surprised that they don’t spend a lot of time faffing around with a report?

I dunno - I think if you involve the CEO, you’re the one that’s going to look bad. Theoretically, he want’s his products sold. I don’t know how he would take to the idea of you hasseling his sales force, and then refusing to help them when they ask.

Relax. Explane the forms again. Train each person. Suck it up, basically.

I work in sales, high dollar technology sales. Here is a tip:

If it does not directly relate to, or improve the chances of closing business, the sales people will give it somewhere between zero and ten percent attention. Yes, progress reports, pipeline reports, backlog reports, etc., are important - but not to the people who’s job it is to sell.

Selling = generating revenue for the company and thereby (in most cases) putting large amounts of money in their bank account and food on the table. Everything else is irrelevant.

You’ll have better luck teaching the lion to lay down with the lamb than win this one with sales people.

Elevating it to the CEO is not a wise career move. They hire people to be responsible enough to solve situations like this without bothering them from doing the important CEO-type things: fixing Quarterly reports and playing golf. :wink:
MeanJoe

I meant to finish that with:

Obviously, they do not see the value in what you are requesting of them. I do not see the value, from their prospective either, in terms of closing business, earning revenue, making bank. If you can convince them otherwise, you’ll get cooperation to do the report.

I concur with alice, especially because she added “faffing” to my vocabulary.

Haj

ThatDuckIsEvil, you totally have my sympathy. I’ve had similar problems with not only salespeople but all kinds of other intelligent professionals who bloody well ought to know better. It drives me absoluetly fucking insane. I don’t think you’re over-reacting.

I just hope you can get it out of your system here and elsewhere (do you have a SO? a beer buddy or two?) because unfortunately, alice_in_wonderland and MeanJoe are right. Salespeople bring in money, and you don’t, and you are never going to be as “mission-critical” as they are. Logic does not enter into this situation in the way you (and I) want it to. No matter how right you are, no matter how much Amnesty International would protect your right to ream these kids a whole new set, you will not win this battle. It makes “business sense” to let the salespeople be creative in this way.

Better in the long run is if you can either figure out how to do away with this report, or make it clear (without condescending, if such a thing is possible) to the salespeople why it really needs to be done. Or write yourself (or get somebody else to write for you) a nice little macro that’ll clean up these things for you.

True

If 5 years in operations taught me one thing it was this.

Never ever let accountability skip levels. The sales people answer to the sales manager and could give a rats ass what you think. It is the sales managers responsibility to collate the report. If the sales manager gives you a poor/incomplete report, return it to him for correction. Do not accept it half assed. If the boss is looking for it, tell him it has not been completed or that the sales manager is finishing/cleaning it up.

If you have a semi-functional management team and the CEO wants the report done properly, eventually the sales manager will get sick of doing all the fixes and force his team to do it. If the report is still fucked up and the sales manager refuses to clean it up, turn it in to the boss as is. Why make the sales manager look good for half assing it.

On a side note, I understand your ire all too well. My problems are conflicting goals with ops. Sales people selling tons of product for barely over cost, and getting awards for “high volume” while driving the company headlong towards bankruptcy.

Having worked with engineers, I can tell you that even if their income does depend on it, they may still get it wrong. I still remember saying “X, if you don’t turn in your timesheet, you will not get paid.” He was a good engineer, just lousy at getting in the sheets which I used to bill the clients as well as prepare payroll.

Having designed an elegant, custom-built piece of contact management software, I can also tell you that, no matter how easy you make it to use, sales reps would like it to be easier still, and are disappointed to learn the software can’t read their minds. That said, are you sure there isn’t any way you can simplify it even further? That is a serious question, even though I know what both my initial and long term responses to that would be (only the latter can be repeated in polite company).

Good luck, and you do have my sympathies!
CJ

Sales folk are f*cking tools, I know this because it takes one to know one.

See if there is any way that you can get out of doing that monthly report. Better yet, reassign it completely to the sales manager and let it be his problem. Now that the sales team HAS a manager it’s comepletley right that such things stay within their group anyhow.

Anyway to go back to the sales people, say on a DAILY basis? Bugging them? Preventing them form playing in SDMBs while you …ahem …“train” them in the use of said spreadsheet?

Boring them with inane “computer” talk? Going OVER and OVER the same information in an oh so “nasty-nice” way? Sweet on the outside, but words veiled to have a pointed “you’re a lazy idiot” meaning underneath?

After they get tired of wasting their time with you for too many hours, they’ll do it out of self preservation.

It’s kind of like when you have to “retrain” a spoiled child. Kids are smart, they pick times where they know mom and dad will be inconvenienced to act up. Like when they’re on their way out for a night out, or when they’re in the grocery store, almost done and up to the register with a full cart of groceries.

The only way to get them to realize that mom and dad are SERIOUS is to grab their sorry little misbehavin’ asses up OUT of that cart and march out the door.

Or to turn around, and stay home with them and make SURE they bear the brunt of whatever punishment they deserve.

Enough times like that (doesn’t take long, only seems like it when mom and dad are inconvenienced) and they figure out they really AREN’T going to get away with stuff.

Same with your “bratty” salespeople. There are no real consequences for their actions (or lack thereof). If all the sudden you bent over backward to “help” them learn their reports (thereby cutting into their Solataire and websurfing time), they’d figure out DAMN quick that it would be to their BEST benefit to just do the report correctly in the first place than to have to waste hours out of their week, that COULD be spent bs’ing and goofing off, having to take training courses from you.

I’m with you though, I mean, come on!! An Excel spreadsheet with 7 columns? You gotta be a special kind of stupid to not be able to fill in that sort of report.

SHEESH.

<shrug>

Yet another manager who thinks he’s worth more than the people who are doing the work. You’re a support person; your job is to support the people who make the money or make the product. If it’s been a year and they still don’t do the reports, maybe it’s time to redesign the procedure and make it something that is easier to do. Or go around and collect the data and do it yourself every month. Getting the data is your job, not theirs.

Uh, no – Duck is part of the administrative staff. I read that as being more-or-less secretarial, probably paid worse than the salespeople and with a much more boring job and with much less authority. Where in the OP does Duck mention having any managerial power?

If the Bossman says that it’s Duck’s responsibility to make sure the report is good, then that’s that. But currently, the Bossman has assigned it to the salespeople, and the salespeople are sloughing it off because they’ve discovered they can get away with adding it to Duck’s workload.

That’s not okay. That’s laziness. If they need to shift some of their workload onto another employee, they need to get that employee’s boss’s permission to do so, not do it through the backhanded method (do such a shitty job that Duck will do it for them) they’re currently using.

Daniel

Thanks, you guys. Really. I needed to get some perspective before my head exploded. :stuck_out_tongue:

alice, yes I know, I should not have refused him help. I agree with you. It’s just difficult here because they’re NOT the reason we have a job. We are a new company, only started up 2 years ago, and we have private investors that are “floating us” operating expenses until we can get out of the red. We run a loss every month. These investors are the ones who want to see this Task X, and I’m more inclined to lick THEIR boots than the sales folk.

If we had the SALES to let us make a PROFIT, then maybe, I would agree with your statement that we should be thankful to our sales reps. As it stands now, they’re the ones preventing us from succeeding as a company, and preventing all of us from getting raises, benefits, etc. that at least half of us so richly deserve. :wink:

CEO and Manager play this Good Cop/Bad Cop thing with the sales people. On their own, without my prodding. Manager is of course the Good Cop cushioning their ever-fragile self-esteems. Since that’s already a bad combo, I don’t think I’ll go to the CEO with this issue. I’ll take your advice. I’m going to take a deep breath and ride it out - while looking for another job.

I’ve clarified my duties till the cows came home. I think this latest meeting with Manager takes the cake.

Again, thanks for all of your feedback.

Canvas Shoes, you are my new hero!!! :slight_smile:

This is hard. There needs to be an accountability for not doing your job, but that’s usually reflected in the annual review, in bonuses (or the lack there of), or in raises (or the lack there of).

The problem is that they no longer have anything to fear from you because they no longer report to you…and you evidently no longer have any input into their review. The prior suggestion to swing this project over to the SM and make it his baby is a good one (they are departmentalized now). That way, if the departments bonus budget is slashed due to poor performance, it is the manager who has to break the news as well as bite the bullet. In my limited experiance, sales people only respond to what puts a penny into or takes a penny out of their pockets.

That Duck, I’m going through almost exactly the same situation here. Except it isn’t limited to just one report that the sales staff refuse to make any effort to do. We are in a complicated business with tons of complicated products, and they just can’t take the usual salesman attitude of “half-assed is good enough” on everything they do, because then we don’t get paid from the government (our clients get wheelchairs and such, and most of it is government subsidized). But, the big boss here is a former salesman, and he takes almost no interest in how difficult it is to actually collect the money for the sales they make.

In my situation, accounting has all the responsibility and no authority, and sales has absolutely no accountability. They do as they please, and the accounting staff takes up their slack. Did I mention that we are drastically understaffed in accounting, yet they keep hiring new salespeople every month?

The worst part about this is that others in this thread are absolutely right; accounting will never be taken seriously, and sales will always be the Golden Boys of management. Which is why, after we buy our house in the next couple of months, I’m starting to look for another job myself. Hopefully one that is run by people who understand that a sale isn’t finished until the money is deposited in the bank.

i think i’m looking at this too objectively. Im envisioning a rowing crew, not like on the Thames, but like a crew in those old movies -rowing a big ol’ ship. And every other person on an oar is a sales person. And they’re sitting there thinking about being creative, hands are off the oars. Then when it’s chow time, here they are grabbing up extra loaves of bread or an extra cold potato, and for WHAT? There’s LOTS of other folks that work hard to keep that ship moving. Every time I see one of them I think, “I hope you choke on that extra loaf of bread”

I know that’s melodramatic, please pardon.

In my situation here, we provide a SERVICE. The sales people talk the customer into getting it, but after that, the salesperson’s job is over. It’s up to our FABULOUS Tech Support Dept. to keep our customers happy, content, and willing to re-sign their contract every year. Our retention rate is practically PRISTINE. It’s THAT dept. that gets my respect for all the hard work they do in keeping our money rolling in. Yet THEY get shit on by the sales reps and our CEO on a regular basis.

I just want to understand how people who don’t contribute can have the utter GALL to stand there with their hand out. Like the children’s book The Little Red Hen. It’s disgusting to me, and very agonizing to see day in and day out.

If the sales manager won’t push the salespeople to get it done, then go over his head. Or go to your boss and let him handle it.

You could always ask that the sales manager take over the responsibility of generating this report. Then, if it doesn’t get done, it’s his ass in the sling.

And I call bullshit on “hate to do paperwork” crap. That IS part of their job…else how does the order get input?