Jersey Diamond, not everyone who disagrees with you is the Anti-Christ. I’m also interested in learning what specific things in that prayer you find objectionable, as well as your take on the two I submitted.
CJ
Great, Jersey, now youre making me feel like a really good christian wouldn’t say it, so if I am wililng to then…
Oh, I see. i hadn’t read the whole thing in entirety.
Well, their argument will NEVER be sound enough to reject jesus.
Just like no one will convince me the Earth isn’t round(ish).
So, I need not worry that this prayer will stop me from belieivng that God exists and Jesus is God.
Sorry, Ben.
who’s Tim LaHaye?
that Carpathia sounds like a pretty cool dude! Does he have a website?
I KID! I KID!
Ironically, I’m reading a critique of the Left Behind series by Gary DeMar (a preterist postmillenialist Christian) this evening.
…Interesting perspective. I dont necessairly disagree.
Ben although I am not sure of that questions relivance on this message board I am working on getting all those emails in order and to give you an answer to the other question that which we had before. (although stupid hotmail and its limited space )
I would not say the prayer. Let me go back to Adam and Eve, and would it be good for them, in the garden, to say “Oh God, if you don’t want me to eat of this forbidden fruit, please part the heavens and write something in the sky.”? Nope, because He already said it. It’s like praying if you should murder someone. Whatever you feel, don’t do it. That’s why we have the Bible, so we don’t need to go on our emotions. Not to dismiss emotions, but they aren’t always accurate. When I became a Christian, I saw God move in a powerful way that actually freaked me out. I felt evil like I’ve never known. After experiencing God in a real way, and seeing the Bible come alive like I’ve never known, I don’t really need to question if He exists. Granted sometimes I don’t understand God, but I’d be foolish to think I always could. Not to say I turn off my mind, as we are required to have a mind and actually use it, but some things I don’t know about, and those are the things I tend to pray for.
I would not say the prayer. Let me go back to Adam and Eve, and would it be good for them, in the garden, to say “Oh God, if you don’t want me to eat of this forbidden fruit, please part the heavens and write something in the sky.”? Nope, because He already said it. It’s like praying if you should murder someone. Whatever you feel, don’t do it. That’s why we have the Bible, so we don’t need to go on our emotions. Not to dismiss emotions, but they aren’t always accurate. When I became a Christian, I saw God move in a powerful way that actually freaked me out. I felt evil like I’ve never known. After experiencing God in a real way, and seeing the Bible come alive like I’ve never known, I don’t really need to question if He exists. Granted sometimes I don’t understand God, but I’d be foolish to think I always could. Not to say I turn off my mind, as we are required to have a mind and actually use it, but some things I don’t know about, and those are the things I tend to pray for.
Don’t know how that happened…sorry.
Nicely said SVT.
I guess it’s a good thing I didn’t say that, CJ.
Well, let’s see:
Today, I humble myself before thee, O LORD. Let me serve you with all my heart and all my mind.***
Agreed. This is what He wants us to do.
I know that willingness to change is not a betrayal of you.
Agreed. We need to change/be born again in Christ, and come out of the ways of the world.
***Open-mindedness is not watering down the truth. ***
Agreed. Being opened minded does not water down the truth.
Watering down the truth is what people do when they put what they think is morally right ahead of what the Word of God says, or making red mean green, or making red obsolete if they don’t like it.
Let me not be like the Pharisees, who believed themselves your most devoted servants, even as their efforts took them further from you.
I would not pray to be like or not like someone. I would ask God to guide me to be the best christian I can be. That is what He wants us to do.
Help me to know the wonders of the works of thy hand, O Lord.
Agreed.
***Let me discuss your ways with an open mind. ***
As long as it stays biblical, sure.
***If my knowledge of your creation is correct, grant me the eloquence to convince others. ***
Agreed.
If my knowledge of your creation is wrong, help me to understand how evolution could be a more wondrous creation than what I had previously believed.
Ok, agreed.
***If someone argues that you don’t want me to be a Christian, I will listen, ***
Sure, I would listen. But anyone who would try to convince me that I should not follow Christ, is contradicting the Bible, therefore, all I would be doing is listening. I would then pray that God would give me the wisdom to show them where they are wrong.
***and consider that they might be your servant, which you in your infinite wisdom have sent to minister to me. ***
No, I would not consider anyone a servant of God, who tried to take me away from the Word of God.
***If their argument is false, then give me the eloquence to show them where they have erred. ***
What I basically said above.
But if their argument is sound, I will reject Jesus as a stumbling-block, and turn to the true worship of you, O Lord.
If their argument contradicts what the Bible says, then it is false.
I would not reject Jesus for anyones supposedly sound argument.
***Help me to see Your truth, O Lord.
Amen.***
Agreed!
Also, I don’t have any problems with saying the prayers you posted. They are nothing like the OP prayer.
I don’t think there is a such thing as “a really good Christian”.
You either are, or you are not.
I personally don’t think you should be so quick to agree to say it, but I see that you also agree, after re reading the OP. 
How do you know the Bible is the Word of God?
Believing in an aware, omnipotent, out of the box big G God, my prayers cannot be limited to “God, option A, if not, option B.” If I believe that God is able to do beyond my capability to think or ask of Him, how can I suggest to him that there are only two ways of approaching any matter? Perhaps within my limited, human approach, but certainly not within the boundless energies of God, and I cannot approach Him in good faith and humility and suggest otherwise.
There is an old saying in some Christian circles: “You know because you know because you know.” It sounds like illogical, circular reasoning at its best, and if it were being applied to something which had some tangible proof, it would be. But such a matter transcends the tangible, to be sure.
I’ve often felt that faith is not resident in the same part of the intellect as empirical knowledge. We “know” that the Bible is the word of God or that Jesus is the Christ because our faith tells us it is so; it is not the same way in which we know the Pythagorean theorem or the molar weight of platinum. Does this make our knowledge of these matters less “real” or less valuable than our knowledge of that which can be mathematically solved or empirically observed?
Those who do not put any value on matters of faith would say no. It seems clear in these instances, value, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. It can illustrated and illuminated, but isn’t something that one can instruct or instill in another person.
Of course, as I say all this it seems fair to disclaim myself: I’m not a “Fundamentalist” by most reasonable definitions. But the tenor and depth of my faith falls into that territory for most outside observers, so I’ll wear the label if deemed necessary.
OK, Jersey Diamond, my comment about the Anti-Christ was a cheap shot, and I apologize. I’m afraid I have a deep-seated, knee-jerk reaction to Timothy LaHaye which is, to put it mildly, most unpleasant.
Since this is the portion of the prayer which seems to be causing the most contention, I’d like to address my take on it.
I’m about to indulge in some classical theist circular reasoning, so if any Atheists want to start their muttering now, I’ll understand. You see, I can pray this because I trust God enough to know that an argument strong enough to make me reject Jesus isn’t going to happen. It’s kind of like when I told my best friend before that she got married that I would do anything she asked me to and meant it. I know her and she knows me well enough that for her to ask me to do something I wouldn’t do would require a major and profound shift in one of our personalities, to the point where she would no longer be the person I know. So it is with God. Just as Christ spoke of the shepherd searching long and hard until all the sheep were in the fold, or the woman searching long and hard until she found what she’d been looking for, so I firmly believe God will not permit me to become lost.
In real life, I associate with Wiccans and Pagans as well as Christians. I have ministered to and been ministered to by two particularly close friends who are Wiccans and, rather than diminishing my faith, my association with them has only served to strengthen it. If someone tells me God does not want me to be a Christian, I will indeed listen, but chances are I will then tell them why I believe He does want me to be a Christian and ask them why they believe otherwise.
I may walk away from my church, either in terms of my parish or my diocese. I’ve recently learned something entirely separate from the current controversy dividing the Episcopal for my church which is giving me severe doubts individuals within my faith. I will not leave Christ, regardless of the actions of some of the individuals who claim His name.
Eleven years ago this week, when I thought I was truly lost, dead in all but body and cursing my body for being to stubborn to quit, Christ found me, saved me, healed me. It was a profound and explicitly Christian experience. I cannot turn my back on that. I will not make my life before and since then a lie. The God who saved me 11 years ago, who 25 years ago made me too stubborn to betray a friend, will not require me to betray Him now. That is why the portion of that prayer which is causing so much consternation doesn’t trouble me. He won’t ask me to betray Him, any more than He’ll ask me to run under a bus.
Does this help?
CJ
Siege, I understand what you’re saying, but for me, it’s not just about what I know. I know that my God would never ask me to step away from Him, or even consider it. I know that the Lord who has been my refuge and protector will always be there like, in the word of the Psalmist, a mother bird protecting her nestlings. But I wouldn’t want anyone to think otherwise for even a moment, and if a non-Christian overheard this prayer, that thought may be put in their mind.
If I pray a prayer which has seeds of doubt sprinkled throughout, whether I truly doubt or not, how effective would my Christian witness be thereafter? How could I reasonably expect that anyone might come to a saving knowledge of Christ with prompting from my example if they had also heard me pray “If my faith in you is inaccurate, help me to change what I believe?”
I believe that we’re called to “walk the walk and talk the talk” with the help of the Holy Spirit, growing in knowledge and grace and wisdom every day as we seek to be in the center of the will of God. This prayer doesn’t strike me as anything close to “the talk.” As far afield as some of us may be from that ideal on a day to day basis, it’s one thing to be trying to get there and another altogether to speak ideals that run entirely in the opposite direction.
I don’t have a lot of time this morning, but FYI, I am not a fundamentalist.
My major objections to the OPrayer are:
[ul][li]It was not offered in Jesus’ name, either implicitly or explictily. All Christian prayer needs that to be useful, at least to me.[/li][li]It comes dangerously close to what C.S.Lewis talked about when he spoke of prayer as “offering advice to God”. I have never seen that come out right in prayer.[/li][li]It seemed to have a pretty strong agenda. Thus my parody. [/ul][/li]
There is a lot to be said about “counting the cost” of discipleship, and being as honest as you can manage about what you believe and why, but we are also commanded to “test the spirits to see if they are of God”, and the acid test (so to speak) of those spirits are if they confess that Jesus has come in the flesh. (1 John 4:1-6).
I would say Siege’s prayer of humble access in a heartbeat. In fact, I just did.
Regards,
Shodan
It’s amazing how some people are so willing to play paper dolls with Scripture. Genesis in the Old Testament is to be taken as utterly literal. “This is my body” in the New Testament is to be taken as mere metaphor.
Scripture is not the Word of God. Christ is the Word of God and no mere book is the Word of God. Scripture is a message from God and words about God. But only Christ is the Divine Logos. I do not worship Bibles. I worship God.
How can Genesis be taken utterly literal?
Okay, first, I agree 100% with Siege’s long, analytical post on faith in God as Person, and with what Dogface says here.
Second, Shodan’s point on “offering advice to God” is a fault with the prayer as a prayer. But I saw what Ben had to say in it as an exercise for “fundamentalists” in differentiating between the essentials of faith in God and a couple of pet fundamentalist shibboleths. Like Jersey, when one analyzes it, I found that the real problem for me in it was in the last paragraph’s willingness to reject Jesus. Amended from a rejection of Jesus Himself to one of “my frail human ideas of who Jesus was,” I could accept it as humbling myself to learn from God, and I suspect she could as well.
Shodan, I have a problem with “not offered in Jesus’s name,” but not the one you have. For me, my understanding of the meaning behind that is that my sole access to the Most High, to ask anything of Him or even to praise and adore Him, comes through the Atonement of Christ. Accordingly, I am to pattern myself after Him and pray as He might have prayed if He were in my shoes. That, not use or omission of that closing formulary, is what for me constitutes a prayer “in Jesus’s name.”
And that, in turn, is why I asked about the Prayer of St. Francis, which (IMHO) more than any other prayer evinces that sense of being “in Jesus’s name” – without, you will note, the formulary.
vanilla, one quick comment – nobody said this prayer needed to be prayed in public. Could you say it, or something like it, in private?
Yet God wrote (Dictated) the bible.
So its the same thing.