Game of Thrones 8.03 "The Long Night" 4/28/19 [Show discussion]

Fair enough, but Bran should’ve done something. Think about how much time we’ve spent on Bran’s journey. Literally hours worth of screen time over 8 years. Bran had this quest to find the three eyed raven, and then this transformation to become the three eyed raven, and it was clear that he had some huge role to play. The three eyed raven and the night king were both almost mythological god-like figures. They’re each other’s nemesis going back a thousand years or more. Bran’s entire storyline leads up to him becoming the three eyed raven, so that he could be the magical opponent of the personification of death, so that he… could sit around and be bait.

Nothing came out of that entire fucking plotline other than an explanation as to why the NK attacked winterfell rather than bypassed it. Bran’s all-knowing, time-travelling, mind-warging powers, his special connection to the night king, all of it amounted to jack shit.

That’s an incredible dropping of the ball, dramatically.

The way he died is cliche. Almost every fantasy story has some character die to raise the stakes or to give some cost to the heroes. But the character always gets to go out on his own terms, dying exactly how he would’ve wanted. So even with Jorah dead, he died in the exact heroic way you’d expect every standard trope-ridden story to have their character die.

Think of it this way:

The Dothraki go out and charge the dead. Tactically stupid, but whatever, fine. The flaming swords charging into the night is a very cool image. Jorah charging with them makes sense - he speaks their language, he’s one of Dany’s top soldiers, it makes sense that he would lead them. And then the firey Arakhs going out one by one - a very cool, dramatic scene. The badass Dothraki, who we know to be a force to be reckoned with, were just snuffed out by the dead. Oh shit, the dead must be really powerful. Maybe things aren’t going to go well for our heroes. Maybe shit just got real. Maybe the Night King really will win.

That was a great choice on their part. In terms of character, setting, cinematography, ramping up the stakes, creating tension. Great job guys.

Except… 10 seconds later, despite the death of the entire fucking Dothraki, Jorah comes back unharmed. Of course. Now we know that major characters have invincible forcefields. Sure, Jorah may die at some point, but he’s going to die doing what he wants to do, heroically, not as a normal consequence of battle, or in order to ramp up the stakes to show us that the NK might actually win and that our characters are in danger.

They created the whole Dothraki shot to ramp up the stakes, show us that the dead really are a threat, and that the good guys might not win. They undermined it 10 seconds later by saying oh hey, no, don’t worry, the good guys are fine. This is gonna go exactly how you expect it to go.

After 8 seasons of anticipating this ultimate, climactic battle, it was literally 10 fucking seconds between “Oh shit, the good guys may actually lose” to “oh no, don’t worry, the good guys aren’t going to lose, there’s no tension here”

If they had Jorah die, suddenly, without a glorious, fitting, poetic death… and then the wave of the dead hit our infantry, and Brienne and Jaime and Pod and Grey Worm died too… we’d have spent the whole battle on the edge of our seats wondering if the good guys were going to lose, and if everyone was going to die.

Instead, what we got was Jorah coming back just fine, and the rest of our heroes being fucking comically buried under hostile armed undead troops and somehow, inexplicably, being just fine over and over again.

The sites I’m reading say the handle (or hilt) is made of dragonbone, not dragonglass. (Assuming there’s a difference.)

I had an idea last week how this episode should go…

The battle starts before dawn. Horrifying sight of tens of thousands of dead running and shrieking.

In a somewhat believable sequence, the Night King dies after five minutes. Perhaps it was Dany’s deed with the help of her dragon. It doesn’t matter.

Entire Army of the Dead collapses. Dead silence.

Someone, perhaps Tarly, says “No. This can’t be true. That was too easy.”

They couldn’t believe their eyes. There must be some trick up the Night King’s sleeve. Horrified, thin-nerved soldiers shake. Every movement in the shadow, every clattering of a skull in howling winds looks like the dead are rising again.

Next 30 minutes of slow, atmospheric, suspenseful, psychological cinematic piece.

At some point there’s panic among the soldiers, then stampede. Two favourite characters are crushed and they die under the hundreds of feet.

Then the plot moves on to King’s Landing or whatever.

I’m with SenorBeef, Jorah should have died with the Dothraki. I don’t think that the good guys losing was ever really an option, Not completely losing with the NK holding Winterfell with 3 dragons, and an army of Dothraki/Unsullied/Northerner wights to take on Cersei over the next 3 episodes.

However, plot armor is a problem, and far too few notable characters died in a battle that gave the appearance of killing practically everyone BUT notable characters.

There is. Dragonglass is obsidian (which is somehow unlike real obsidian because it can be cast, but whatever) and dragonbone is actual bones from actual dragons.

I was being sarcastic.

I do that.

Actually, do you really need that much expertise?
[ol]
[li]Put one Valyrian sword in the hottest oven in Winterfell. [/li][li]Melt the Valyrian steel into a liquid. [/li][li]Dip 100 regular steel arrows into the Valyrian liquid goop. [/li][li]Distribute the Valyrian-plated arrowheads to the finest archers in Winterfell.[/li][li]Shoot the bad guy. Save the world.[/li][/ol]

The problem is not what the actual number of characters who died is, the problem was that they put all the characters in situations were they all should have died and then had them survive in ways that made zero sense. I’m glad Brienne, Tormund, Pod, Jamie and Greyworm survived, but not the way they survived.

I don’t know…I’ve only read two reviews of the episode so far online and they both seem to agree with us.

‘Game of Thrones’ Season 8, Episode 3 review: ‘The Long Night’

Game of Thrones Should’ve Killed More Characters in the Battle of Winterfell

Critics, maybe, but if you go to reddit or twitter or other sort of general popular places, everyone is raving about it being the most amazeballs shit ever. I can’t really say this without sounding like a snobbish asshole, but I can only guess that the show is so popular that it attracts a crowd that can’t really appreciate why the show was once great, and don’t really see the drop in quality because they didn’t see how it was different in the first place. Edit: Which is not a criticism of anyone in particular who liked it, just being puzzled at the surprising lack of people in general who don’t. This board’s reaction is pretty much the opposite reaction of everywhere else on the internet I’ve seen, which admitted is not comprehensive.

I tried to make thoughtful criticism on reddit and they’re sitting around a 50% downvote rate while everything that says OMG BEST SHOW EVAR has +95238 upvotes. It’s not just that people like it, it’s that they’re so caught up in being fanboys about it that they’re also attacking criticism of their precious.

If you go to /r/asoiaf rather than /r/gameofthrones though you’ll see more of a reaction like here.

Which may go to your point regarding what the story is supposed to be.

They’ve only briefly talked about it, but I think the assumption is that what’s make the steel different isn’t just what it’s made of but how it’s made. You just melt it down without knowing what you’re doing, and you lose the “Valyrian-ness”

Google “Damascus steel” if you want a real-world example.

they could not “betray Martin’s work” because there was not actual work from him to finish the story. He quit the project 8 years ago. All the blame goes to him.

I felt not enough main characters bit the dust. Possibly inspired by my participating in GOT death-pools. I cried bullshit when the littlest and at that point next-to-last Mormont did that thing she did with that giant. But the episode is very re-watchable. And it’s good. I guess part of my misgiving while watching was that the ending we will get in 3 episodes may not be GRRM’s ending, and I know his ending would’ve reinforced that life isn’t fair, assholes win, and it matters fuck-all who’s on the throne. We are possibly going to get more of a croud-pleaser ending, and this episode didn’t dispel that. It also didn’t prove it, and since GRRM is no longer writing on this story, I’ll take whatever ending we get.

Further, if the adversery is unstoppable, feels no pain, increases his numbers no matter what, and has agency (i.e. not regular zombies), then the only way to defeat him is deus-ex-machina. Arya, Jon, dragon, Bran - it doesn’t matter which machinist godlet, it will feel the same.

But that lady Mormont and the giant thing - that is still bullshit.

Just listening to the Watch podcast and they kind of have the opposite take. They loved it and are a bit surprised by the blow back from a small, but local minority of fans.

One point they made which I think it a little insightful is that GoT is a victim to a degree of it’s own internal tropes. It’s so subversive, especially in the early book-adapted seasons, that people now have these wild expectations that can’t be met. In some ways the only way for the show to continue to be subversive is to subvert-itself, which means skipping the now predictable shock-factor deaths.

Everyone expected Brienne, Pod, Grey Worm, Jorah and Theon to die. If they killed them all as expected they probably would have been crushed for being predictable.

Yeah, I can see her getting the Raven

Dear blah blah

The Targarian defense department regrets to inform you that your family member was killed fighting insurgents in the North. While fighting in close quarters while defending an early warning station, he was struck down and mortally wounded.

He paid the iron price

I wonder how much time Jon spent thinking he killed a dragon by yelling at it.

I think that gives you 100 dull blobs of metal that are a mixture of Valyrian steel and whatever the arrowheads were made out of.

If Valyrian steel is hard to work, that would imply that it requires hotter temperatures. Temperatures that will melt normal steel. You don’t make arrowheads like making candles. If you dip arrowheads into that, they’ll melt into piles of crud and get all mixed up.

Very possibly undoing whatever magic makes Valyrian steel valuable?

Clearly what you need is a Valyrian electroplating setup. Why stop at 100 arrows when you could have thousands! Qyburn could do it, maybe.

It’s not just who lives and who dies. It’s how they die.

That’s bullshit, we expected them to die because of bad writing not because “GoT is gonna GoT.” I was perfectly fine with how the Hound survived, safely locked in a room until the dead got dealt with. Brienne Pod Grey Worm Jamie and Tormund were literally completely swarmed by the dead, every single other person around them died horribly, we got several shots of each of them being overwhelmed. They did not have to write the episode that way.