The freakin’ Cliffs Notes version of *Song of Ice and Fire *is the size of the Oxford English Dictionary … how are we supposed to remember everything in the actual books?
I hear tell that George R.R. Martin wears a ring that he had imbued with all of his knowledge of the series…
I’m constantly getting The Hound confused with Sandor Clegane. They should wear more distinct armor or something.
:unsureifjoking:
At least now that Joffrey is dead they’ll stop calling him Grace and confusing me even more. Do you think The Imp and Tyrion would be friends if they met?
You jest, but it sometimes takes me multiple watchings of TV series/movies because I don’t realize that I was combining 2 characters and thinking they were the same person. All you white people look the same.
The Hound has a dog helmet. I’m not sure who this Mountain guy is, as I never saw any guy with the alps on his head. You’d think a big heavy helmet like that would cut into your raping skills (rapering?).
Hedley Lamarr: Qualifications?
Applicant: Rape, murder, arson, and rape.
Hedley Lamarr: You said rape twice.
Applicant: I like rape.
That’s a good point. No one has ever referred to Elia Martell as Elia Targaryen even though she married Rhaegar. Maybe the Targaryens were the exception. I suppose they usually just married each other so it wasn’t an issue.
As for Littlefinger’s motivation in poisoning Joff, I don’t think it’s really clear in the books what exactly his endgame is. His main objective seems to be just sowing chaos everywhere. I suppose he gained Sansa as a result of Joff’s death. Varys has said on the show that LF would be willing to burn the kingdom to ashes if it meant he could be king, which I thought was an interesting observation, seeing as similar things have been said about Aerys (in the book anyway).
I double-dog dare you to suggest it.
Littlefinger might have “custody” of Sansa, but she’s still married to Tyrion. How’s he gonna deal with that, assuming he wants her for whatever power she might bring? He can’t marry her.
He can’t want her just because she’s Catelyn’s daughter, can he?
Despite having read the books twice and seen every episode of the show (except these last two) at LEAST twice, I sometimes get Gregor/Sandor confused. Or I did until I came up with my mnemonic device that Sandor goes with Sansa (not in a personal shipping way, but the little bird thing)
How about a thread for “people who read some of them, but not all of them, and it wasn’t always sober so some things might have been forgotten, and also kinda skimmed the descriptions of forests”?
He could whack Tyrion, in the style of James Hepburn, 4th Earl of Bothwell.
It seems to me he definitely wants to fuck her and a big part of it is because she is a young, not dead version of Catelyn.
That’s definitely the impression I get from the books…
Was anyone else sketched out by Dontos? TV has him bush creeping, but I think books are worse. Sure it was a “different time” and 13 was old enough.
Since the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion was never consummated, I assume Littlefinger will argue that it isn’t valid. And he isn’t apparently marrying her since he’s pairing her off with Harold Hyrdyng in order to get Winterfell and the Aerie in one match.
Well, Tyrion was convicted in the eyes of the gods of regicide since Oberyn lost the battle to the Mountain. As far as the law is concerned, he’s deader than a doornail.
As for the your second point, I have a feeling Littlefinger isn’t as evil as we all like to think. Martin has a history of establishing villains only to reveal later they aren’t as villainous as all that. Just flawed. I think Littlefinger was deeply in love with Cat and when she married Ned, he became callous and calculating. I think he sees in Sansa the romantic wonder he used to feel with Cat. When she was building the snow castles in the Vale, he joined in and seemed genuinely delighted by her enthusiasm for her own imagination. He sees a bit of himself in Sansa and wants to nurture and protect her. That’s why he’s essentially ‘educating’ her in politics. He wants her to understand him and why he does the things he does.
Littlefinger isn’t a one-dimensional eeeevil villain with no motive. But he’s still evil. He’s decided to put his petty personal desires and disappointments ahead of the basic well-being of thousands of people, including those he doesn’t know and those he does. Just look at the way he treats his whores. He doesn’t have a heart of gold at all. And as for “nurturing” Sansa—sure, he wants to craft her into something specific, but certainly not for her benefit.
You’re right to a certain extent, I think. But I contend no one in the story is evil or good. Littlefinger is a terrible person, don’t get me wrong. But I don’t think everything around him is an object to be used in his quest for personal glory; mostly everything is, but he can’t be all sociopath, can he? In order for his story to come to a satisfying conclusion, he has to have a tragic flaw that will be his undoing. And I’m of the opinion it is his love for Sansa.
Sansa, like Arya and Bran (and Jon. I don’t think he’s dead. Melisandre will give him the kiss of life and bring him back, but he’ll come back a little less sympathetic, akin to the way Beric lost parts of himself every time he came back. Anyway, that’s a different discussion), are undergoing a ‘dark’ education of sorts. And it’s obvious, to me at least, they will turn around at the end of their education and destroy the ones who educated them. Arya will forsake the God of Many Faces and come back to Westeros to avenge her family. It’s why she hid Needle from the priests at the temple. Bran will learn from Blood Raven the secrets of the weirwood and then probably kill him or something once he learns the truth of Blood Raven’s intention (which I think are to warg into Bran and thus achieve Immortality). And Sansa is learning the structure of power from Baelish. I think she will eventually surpass him in prowess and be his undoing. Just speculation though. We’ll see how it plays out.
Anyway, as a side note, I think that was the point of Daenarys story in the fifth book. She can’t be a ‘good’ queen without exercising violence and unleashing her inner ‘evil’. She must cast away her infantile romanticism and become the conqueror she was meant to be. I think she will become the ultimate villain of the series, perhaps redeeming herself in her final moment.
I think you’re operating with a much narrower definition of “evil” than I am. Indeed, if someone is genuinely a sociopath, that might interfere with some notions of evil since a sociopath doesn’t understand empathy or morality.
For the purposes of discussing Littlefinger, I would consider complete selfishness as evil. I don’t think Littlefinger is completely selfish nor do I consider him a total sociopath. The kink (chink? I’ve never been clear on that phrase.) in his armor is Sansa. I think he genuinely cares about her.
Edit: I think the TV series has pretty much confirmed that. They have given a lot of screentime to Baelish and Sansa. They’ve clearly established he has some weird perverse longing for Sansa, in my mind.