Yup. Have to burn my daughter to get a god to help save the world? That world isn’t worth saving.
Kindaaaaa the lesson of NuBSG. “Is humanity worth saving”
I’m about 99.999% sure that I agree with you about this. The only way that I would even consider such an act would be if it were known to me how the transaction would work and that I were certain that the sacrifice would actually save all of humanity, with no repetition ever necessary (and also that I couldn’t do it myself). We know Melisandre has magic powers, but it’s unclear to me (book or show) that she actually knows exactly how the powers work or what the results will be. Vague stuff like “you’ll get power from the sacrifice” or “there’s power in king’s blood” would not be cutting it. Stannis in particular ought to be very hesitant about this, since Melisandre is by no means infallible and he has undergone some pretty serious setbacks for someone who supposedly is destined to triumph.
Furthermore, do other people get power by doing the same sacrifices? If not, perhaps the power in question likes me enough that it isn’t necessary. If so, then what we have is a situation where everyone’s going to be burning their children and we’re at the same relative power situation that we were at before. At some point it may be that if saving humanity requires the sacrifice of all relationships and virtues that make humanity worth it, then it’s time to refuse to participate and take the consequences, and torturing your own children to death is clearly that point.
But when that means your daughter still dies…
There’s a gigantic difference between not being able to effectively stamp out an insurgency and getting the shit kicked out of you in a 1v1 fight by some dude in a dress that has a dagger.
The thing about Stannis thinking he’s humanity’s last savior? That’s all book stuff. The show isn’t doing a good job of showing us anything other than he’s a bitter little gloryhound trying to get his ass on the Iron Throne. I don’t think we need all the books’ teeth grinding and agonizing or anything, but by the show’s own characterization and history, the burning makes no sense RIGHT NOW FOR THIS REASON.
For example: Balon’s still alive so there is no reason to have that much faith in Mel. If all the horses are dead and he said to gather them for meat, that helps with their food situation. The show did not include the Aemon having king’s blood stuff, but if I were a show-only viewer, I might be like “We had a king’s brother on death’s door just a few episodes ago so why didn’t he use him?” He also has NO HEIRS NOW.
So yeah, we readers know in future books if Stannis survives and it’s Shireen or dishonor, he might make that choice (or more likely Mel will do it, thinking he’s dead), but using that logic we gleam from the books and applying it to the show doesn’t really help because the show should stand on its own.
It’s weird that to me the most surprising moment was when Dany’s new fiance got stabbed. Was it ever confirmed in the books that her fiance was actually plotting against her? I probably should re-read the last two books; I can barely remember anything that happened in them.
IIRC, he seemed a bit too slippery and probably was untrustworthy, but we didn’t know for sure.
You’re saying that because your daughter is a doper, and you don’t want her to know about your real thoughts, right?
Surely you would save us all, right?
Maybe not… and don’t call him Shirley.
Heh.
To save her, I’d burn the whole world, and use my soul for tinder.
Including killing you, your wife, all your other relatives, and every other child in the world? Leaving her the only living being on the surface of a ruined uninhabitable planet? Leaving her to die a slow and agonizing and lonely death?
I mean, I’m sure it’s silly to read too much into what is clearly a hyperbolic statement, but I think there is an interesting question (being debated over on the other thread) about whether this act from Stannis is selfish (only caring about his own victory, doesn’t care about his daughter) or selfless (attempting saving the lives of all the soldiers, who are basically strangers to him, giving up something that is extremely precious to him), or both.
Yup. I can see Book Stannis choosing to burn Shireen if he was absolutely convinced it was the only way to save ALL OF HUMANITY from the Others - basically, one life for the world. That’s his duty as Azor Ahai, whether he likes it or not. Unfairly thrust upon him, but Stannis has always done his duty, and if it’s his duty to sacrifice his only child so that the Red God will intervene and save humanity, he’ll do it.
But the show doesn’t really give us any of that. Apparently he’s sacrificing his daughter so he can win the battle for Winterfell and reclaim the North… but he hasn’t really seen the White Walkers yet. And as you pointed out, he doesn’t even have as much reason as Book Stannis to believe in R’hllor since Balon Greyjoy is still alive. And it further weakens Stannis’ character to even be in the situation to begin with - he’s supposed to be a great battle commander who’s survived terrible sieges, but he gets caught with his pants down by Ramsay and his ninja squad? (When the scene first started, I kinda thought Melisandre would start the fire herself, but nope, apparently she’s also surprised).
This blog, The Meereneese Blot, is the best analysis of ADWD that I’ve read. It really makes you look at the book differently and it’s a great refresher for when the details get a little fuzzy. I find Meereen …lacking… in a lot of ways. It’s a little too complicated, dull, and repetitive for my tastes, plus also nearly unendingly bleak. But the blog posts make me think that it’s all just a set up for something more that will make sense later.
Thanks - that’s an interesting blog. Not sure I’m convinced, but it makes for a good read.
Hebephile, n. - Pedo with a dictionary.
That blog is the most fan-wanking bullshit I ever read. I’ve heard people argue that Meereen being mind-numbingly boring was a genius literary move by GRRM. “It makes you appreciate Dany’s frustration in her situation!”
No, GRRM just fucked up and didn’t know what to do.
I love the speculation sites. Preston Jacobs’ youtube collection is my favourite, with insanely detailed readings of the books used to extrapolate fantastically elaborate speculations on what’s going on behind the scenes. And his reactions to season 5 have been hilarious.
Say, just wondering, has the TV series touched on who was behind the attempted assassination of Bran?
For those of you who may not remember, in episode 2 of season 1 Catelyn is holding a vigil over Bran’s sickbed as he recovers from his fall after Jaime Lannister pushed him out of the window of the broken tower in the very first episode. Toward the end of the second episode an assassin sets a fire in Winterfell’s library to distract the guards and then sneaks into Bran’s room to finish him off. Luckily for Bran, Catelyn and Summer were there and together they kill the assassin.
Now, in the books it’s revealed that Joffrey arranged for the assassin in some warped attempt to impress King Robert. As far as I’m aware, the TV series hasn’t covered this at all. Now that Joffrey’s dead, it seems unlikely that they ever will. Do you reckon they’ll just leave it hanging or will they attribute the crime to someone else? Alternatively, did I just miss it? Cheers.
Wasn’t there a scene in which Joffrey said a little too much about Valerian steel and Tyrion figured it out?