Oh, for fucks sake, really? Is this because this is in the Pit? I have very clearly and specifically denounced the crap you are trying to paint me as going “calmly tsk tsk” over. That shit that you find fucking reprehensible, I find fucking reprehensible. Jesus Christ, learn to read.
I said I had a small point, I went over it and over it, talking about how my little thing had very little to do with, and in no way was an attempt to defend the reprehensible bullshit. And yet, here you are, ignoring 90% of what I said…
And that is exactly why I worry about poor saps like boogie2988. That poor fucker has no idea what he’s in for. He keeps posting videos as if people are going to be reasonable, as if people are going to see that he’s a fairly decent guy.
And despite how I feel about that, I am absolutely incensed over the horrible behavior of so many people on the #gamergate side of things. A large majority of those fuckers have proven themselves to be absolutely on the wrong side of things, hateful, toxic, and criminal.
Maybe I’m too much of a goody-goody, but I want to reach out to those who haven’t completely lost themselves and find a way to bring them over to the right side, where we don’t spew hate against our fellow human beings for spurious reasons.
There’s a legitimate conversation to be had about how utterly mean feminists can be even to each other. Feminists calling other feminists misogynists because of some schism that’s minor at best. Behavior that’s exacerbated by the mob mentalities and character limits of Twitter. People who should be allies instead going for each others throats because of stupid things.
Gamergate is the worst possible issue you can attach this to because of how utterly atrocious the other side is. Donglegate? Elevatorgate? (Fuck the gate suffix) By the end of those debacles that were barely worth two blog posts everyone looked like a goddamn loon despite the reasonable conversations that could have happened initially. I’d probably agree with you that there was a legitimate conversation to be had about that stuff in the wake of those. But Gamergate? No, do not attach this argument to Gamergate. It’s a really bad decision.
It’s like trying to have a conversation about how this Malcolm X guy seems kind of militant while discussing a news story where the KKK firebombed a bunch of black peoples’ houses. I mean, you may have a point, but in the wake of the events at hand it’s irrelevant and pretty offensive.
You know when I read condescending crap like that - this sort of nice rationalized story that feminists have cooked up amongst themselves (without ever consulting a real, live man, who hasn’t already bought into their ideology about what he might actually feel, or want from life) to explain why, despite the fact that they know that feminists are 100% on the side of good, so that what they think is best for women must be best for men too, if only the stupid creatures would recognize it - I begin to get an inkling of what has driven these poor, unhappy, boys into lashing out in such absurd and ugly paroxysms of rage.
The rage is both ridiculous and horrible, of course, and makes any possibility of reasoned discussion all the more difficult, but, in fact, it will soon burn itself out, and it scarcely makes a difference in the greater scheme of things, because the condescension, and the determination of feminists only to ever to listen to each other (not even women who haven’t sworn loyalty to the cause, let alone men, can get their views, feelings, or interests taken seriously), has been going on for decades. That such a reaction has blown up now, over videogames of all things, is absurd, and I am sure we can all agree that videogames are not what it is really about. That does not mean that it actually about what feminists wold like to believe it to be about, however.
Uh, hi, BPC here, just thought I’d throw this out there: yes this is totally a thing. My main introduction to feminism as a concept when I was a child was Linda. I hesitate to speak ill of her, because she loved me as if I was her own kid. But god damn, that bitch be crazy. She went on and on about feminism. And not modern feminism. Why do you think I thought for so long that Dworkin was an important figure in modern feminism? Because she was pushing all of that crazy “all coitus is inherently degrading” bullshit, along with a number of other concepts that were equally insane. Probably didn’t help that she was also a lesbian. I spent a lot of my life supporting equality in various ways (you should see some of the diatribes I wrote on various forums that banned me mostly for writing said diatribes), and had no idea that feminism was so broad or so encompassing. I found what I knew of feminism to be bizarre and repugnant.
Well… Yeah. First off, that first group doesn’t exactly keep their terms as simple as you like it. Second off, everyone knows that the second group is wrong. Everyone. Even the people in that second group. What, you think we’re going to get them to stop by telling them they’re doing something wrong? They know that it’s wrong, that’s why they do it. They want the attention. I remember an article on BusinessInsider that talked about how some people are having trouble condemning this. No we are not. As said, everyone knows it’s wrong. What we’re trying to do is not like a radical fringe group of trolls completely derail and dominate the discussion. And here’s the thing where alienation comes in. When you start generalizing from a tiny group of trolls to everyone who considers themselves a “gamer” (big-ass group, mind you), you paint them with a broad brush that they don’t deserve, want, or like.
Buuuuuullshit. These people exist. There’s a lot of them. You know how #Gamergate is a pretty huge thing? Yeah, I’m willing to bet there’s quite a lot of them. Do you have any idea how uncommonly feminism comes up in day-to-day life? Do you think most people don’t recognize a troll when they see them? Don’t get me wrong, getting mad at the feminists here isn’t rational. But neither are people. And that’s the problem.
Oh, poor you, the problem is you’re just too good. I feel your pain.
Or at least I would, if it weren’t for your patronizing, supercilious, self-pitying tone. Do you not see that if your tone weren’t so obnoxious, people would be a lot more willing to listen to the point you’re trying to make? I’m sure there are plenty of feminists who’d be more willing to hear your point if you could figure out how to make it without such patronizing language.
Not that irrevelant. As disgusting as all this is, it’s important to remember that it really is just a small handful of douchebags causing all the problem. A billion people worldwide play games and GamerGaters probably only number in the low four figures.
Welll…you’re probably right about the number of active GamerGaters. I suspect that folks who harbor similar (if less violent) ideas is higher, but I can’t come close to proving it.
In any case, I think this is one of those clear cases where we gamers who are not jerks need to ostracize, isolate, and condemn the jerks, making it abundantly clear how unwelcome they are with their terrible selves, making it clear that they’re not mainstream, making it clear that gamer spaces are NOT safe spaces for their misogyny. And male gamers have an even higher duty to shun, in this regard, because the jerks are going to listen to us more than they’ll listen to female gamers.
No, I agree - I read that post by Kimstu and thought “wait, what? Yeah, that totally applies to me and all of my friends and is indicative of how accurate the feminist worldview is!” :rolleyes:
I have to say im very much pro gamergate. I think enough has been brought up to at least be concerned with journalistic integrity in the industry. Both sides are guilty of being nasty as hell to one another; both sides have extremists who do not speak for the entire cause.
Im also not overly concerned with death threats online. This is the internet for goodness sake. If you are not given a death threat or called a c*nt at least once a day on Twitter you are not using Twitter correctly. Both sides absolutely get off on receiving nasty messages. Half the Tweets and online articles about gamergate are wallowing in self pity about receiving nasty messages.
You agree that you “begin to get an inkling of what has driven these poor, unhappy, boys into lashing out in such absurd and ugly paroxysms of rage”?
Because rolling your eyes in irritation is a big fat difference from “lashing out in such absurd and ugly paroxysms of rage.”
I mean, I think your eyerolls shows that you’re not understanding what Kimstu said, and I think njtt’s post was idiotic in its implication that feminists need to check with a “real live man” before saying anything about misogynists, but if you’re limiting your response to a eyeroll, you’re not the people that njtt is talking about, and definitely not the people that kimstu is talking about.
Fine. Go reach out to the hate-spewers and do that. But don’t try to tell the people whom the hate-spewers are spewing hate against that they shouldn’t expect to be listened to or taken seriously until they start being scrupulously polite to the hate-spewers.
Seriously?? You’re saying that when you read a reasoned and moderate hypothesis about how entrenched social prejudices foster bigotry and alienation in people who subscribe to those prejudices, that seems to you so aggressively offensive that you can understand how it would “drive” those people into “absurd and ugly paroxysms of rage”?!?!!
Are the sexist men you’re sticking up for here (because remember, it was only specifically, explicitly sexist men that I was talking about) actually made of tissue paper, or what?
For fuck’s sake, dude, feminists and other groups read unflattering hypotheses about how entrenched social prejudices have fostered various undesirable attitudes and behaviors in us all the time. Yet we don’t resort to death threats and doxxing and vicious obscene tirades or other manifestations of “lashing out in such absurd and ugly paroxysms of rage”.
If the sexist men you’re talking about are really so fragile that encountering a moderately expressed unflattering sociological analysis of their attitudes is considered a realistic provocation for potentially tipping them over the edge of actual hatred and violence, then they are simply unfit to interact with real people in the real world at all. I can’t believe that you think such people are worth defending.
You realize that this immediately removes you from the weird hypothetical category of men that I was arguing about with G. Orr, the ones who supposedly reached adulthood without ever having any awareness of feminism until they encountered some feminists pissed off about Gamergate, right?
To paraphrase what LHoD said, don’t insist on wearing the cap if it doesn’t actually fit you.
This is absolutely true. And, as I devoted a long post to saying a couple of pages back, there’s also a legitimate conversation to be had about how feminists need to be more vocal against gendered expectations that discriminate against men.
And it’s perfectly reasonable to start conversations about those issues at any time.
Where I and a lot of other feminists are calling bullshit is just on the evasive tactic of declaring that feminists shouldn’t expect any of their criticisms or complaints to be listened to as long as the listeners can find anything to object to in the feminists’ own behavior or “tone”.
“I disagree with what many feminists are saying or doing about Issue A” is a totally valid conversation opener. “I think many feminists have some good points about Issue A but they don’t deserve to be taken seriously if I don’t like the tone in which they present them” is not.
And you know, it’s not even that I’m being expected to be nice to the Death Eaters. I’m getting lectured to be nice to all the dipshits who support the Death Eaters because they’ve been told that it’s about Wizard Pride or something innocuous and they’re too dumb to notice the actual death threats and the part where they call themselves “Death Eaters”.
And then they get so pissy when you point out that the DEATH EATERS are threatening people with ACTUAL DEATH and they snit, “well, maybe I would think about your point if only you weren’t so shrill.”
No. No, you really wouldn’t because you are a moron and a horrible human being and you’ve got a freaking SKULL on your cap and you’ve never even noticed. ANYWAY
Rolling Stone article with Anita Sarkeesian about the way the Streisand Effect and death threats are totally making her point for her and people are starting to notice.
Quinn sleeping with a journalist who gave her free publicity in two articles.
Quinn’s own dubious actions in helping shut down a competitor firm.
Half a dozen or more articles appearing in different publications on the same day, all with roughly the same talking points and narrative. Basically the narrative of the death of gamers.
Death threats are ten a penny online. They are fairly regular to phone in also. Are they to be welcomed? No. But if I right now on SD threatened that I was gonna kill you, cut your privates off and shove em down your throat would you really be thinking it a big deal? No, I would hope you have a thicker skin.
At a rough guesstimate around a few thousand people are actively involved in gameragte social media(could be much, much more than this). It should come as no surprise that such a passionate topic and such a populist issue has a few people tweeting very nasty things. Considering many of these tweets are by teenage males it certainly shouldnt be a surprise that offended tweets are given out. Should these nasty tweets become *the *story? No. We may as well have no debate. Just sit back and see who gets the nastiest tweets and declare that side the winner of the debate.
I see what you did there. [M&W FTW!]