Gas vs electric heat

[raindog]

@gotpasswords

I played around with a calculator from my utility company, and for my zip code near San Francisco, a heat pump would be about ten bucks less per year to run, compared to gas. My winters are probably similar to yours - it never actually gets cold enough for anything to freeze here beyond a little frost on the windshield maybe three times per year.

Check with your local utility - they probably have a similar calculator.

I just did a calculation for a customer with software that not only calulates the various costs of operations for different heating syatems, but does a “load calculation” to determine the correct size neede to heat/cool the house. The savings were 34%. (HP vs NG)

I have no incentives to sell them anything in particular, other than what they really need. (Considering all the variables, not the least of which is their budget/finances)

I have never run a program—in the last few years----that didn’t show a heat pump outperforming gas by a very wide margin. 20-40% percent is common.

I do not believe this calculator is accurate, and doesn’t take into consideration all of the factors. Unless there is some anomaly in gas/elec pricing in your area, the heat pump should blow gas away.

[raindog]

@Ring

spingears I’ve never heard of a system like this, but it sounds like it may be the way to go. Do you, by any chance, know who makes it?

(I may actually click on one of the google adds – I wonder if this is good or bad?)

Don’t choose the google add for anything but education, if that…

Ring, most heat pumps are installed with electric as the secondary heat source. (often called ‘backup’ or emergency’ heat)

But…if natural gas (NG) is available you can couple the heat pump with NG and have the best of both worlds. It’s called a ‘duel fuel’ system. From my calcualtions it is the cheapest option (operating cost) among the ‘conventional’ systems. *By far. *(There are other GREAT systems like in floor radiant (boiler) heat, high efficiency hot water heaters that both provide hot water and can be used for heat etc. they’re much more expensive as ‘first installed cost’ )

What spingears is suggesting can be accomplished with an outdoor thermostat. (no matter the brand of equipment) They’re usually not standard (but should be!) and cost about $100 installed. It should be installed at the point of installtion. It will automatically switch over to gas heat at some predetermined set point. The good thing about that is when the temp outdoors is below 32° (as an example) the heat pump is disabled and you use gas.

We install one on every installation. I’d also point out that 32° is a good starting point, but if your house is new and has a tight envelope you may be able to run that heat pump as low as 25°.

Talk to a reputable, qualified heating contractor who has experience with heat pumps.

[raindog]

@hlanelee

I spent some time a few years ago installing and repairing heat pumps. I wouldn’t have one unless it was geo-thermal, but that requires that you install a well and have a place for the water to run off.

This is not neccessarily true. A closed loop system needs no well, or run off.

This year I bought out a [bankrupt] contractor who installed Geo-Thermal. They have tremondous problems. We had a long, hot summer in the midwest and the earth is baked. System after system will not run as the loop temps are well over 100°.

Even with a well, one pass through system may run a well dry. If a GeoThermal system is being contemplated it is absolutely neccessary that a highly qualified, experienced contractor be used.

[Gorsnak]

Geothermal heat pumps are all the rage up here in Saskatchewan recently, often with in-floor heat delivery. Supposed to be big savings over gas for heating, and the bonus feature of built in air conditioning for summer in a place where most houses have no a/c.

[Ring]

Great stuff guys. I’ve never even heard of a duel fuel system, but it certainly seems like the way to go. I presume the reason everyone doesn’t use them is because initial expense is pretty high. Any idea how long the payback would be? Do all the big name HVAC manufactures offer them?

[raindog]

@Gorsnak

Geothermal heat pumps are all the rage up here in Saskatchewan recently, often with in-floor heat delivery. Supposed to be big savings over gas for heating, and the bonus feature of built in air conditioning for summer in a place where most houses have no a/c.

Geo is a GREAT concept.
There are different ways to accomplish this.

Direct expansion; where the refigerant is pumped directly into the earth (and back)

Indirect; with methanol or glycol in a closed loop, (which can be in the earth or even in a pond) or “once through” systems that use well water and are discharged back into the well or in a creek. Radiant floor heating is just outstanding. The best there is. (imo)

At any rate, I have seem many horror stories. It hasn’t soured me on geo, however it has convinced me that it is absolutely 100% critical that you find a contractor with boodles of experience and years of installations of geo systems under his belt.

If not, expect to be unhappy, broke or in court. (or a combination of the 3…)

[raindog]

@Ring

Great stuff guys. I’ve never even heard of a duel fuel system, but it certainly seems like the way to go. I presume the reason everyone doesn’t use them is because initial expense is pretty high. Any idea how long the payback would be? Do all the big name HVAC manufactures offer them?

Gas prices are expected to go up 60-100% this year. That is unheard of.

The reason the HP/NG combination hasn’t been used more is the economics of gas. For many years it was plentiful and cheap. There was no compelling reason to look for lower costs.

That’s all changed.

Your builder may not want to run natural gas into the home. But, for homeowners who already have natural gas and are replacing, they are foolish in my view for not getting a HP/NG combination.

At 40+% savings vs straight natural gas, it’s a slam dunk. The payback is 3 years or less. And almostly certainly less.

Your choices are:

1. Heat pump w/ NG as backup
2. Heat pump w/ electric as backup
3. Straight natural gas. (with air conditioning of course)

With the relative costs of utilities, the HP/NG combination is the overall best combination for comfort and cost of operation.

[spingears]

@Ring

spingears I’ve never heard of a system like this, but it sounds like it may be the way to go. Do you, by any chance, know who makes it?

It was installed by a friend of mine in the HVAC business. Not fully acquainted with the method of actuation. AFAIK it was a standard feature of the Trane ™ split system. Contact your local dealer(s) for further information. Supposed to be set for most overall efficiency.
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