I watched Gattaca two days ago and the difference between “valids” and “invalids” is not totally clear to me. My guess about what the producers wanted to say is “valid” means the person is a product of pre-natal selection while “invalids” have been fathered naturally without any genetic engineers intervening.
However, pretty much at the beginning of the story, Vincent tells us that genetic discrimination is formally banned, although this law is never obeyed in practice. This makes me doubt official identification systems would draw a difference between artificially and naturally born children. Of course, it could also be a simple inconsistency. Any movie freaks out there know more about it?
The movie never bothered to think anything out and is filled with dumb inconsistancies; this was one of the most minor ones.
In-valids (a stupid term) seems to have meant those who had something wrong in their genetic makeup. Maybe.
You shouldn’t try to think about Gattaca; the filmmakers didn’t put much thought into it, and it’s glaringly obvious.
I thought the valid/invalid was more of a pass/fail grade.
There can be no official discrimination based on natural vs. assisted birth, but that doesn’t stop someone from compiling a private database/rating system a la CarFax (to use a prosaic example). My take is that Valid and Invalid refer to the robustness of the genetic code, not to whether the person was naturally born.
Think about it, you care that a candidate, lover, employee is a physical and mental prodigy with low risk for illness, you don’t care how he/she got that way.
Wow Chuck- care to drop some examples? I like the movie but never thought about it that much. I thought it handled certain subjects cleverly and would consider it to be a pretty smart film by today’s scifi standards.
I love Gattaca. I think it’s a great film.
Invalid, to me is a play on invalid, as in a sick or bedridden person.
Valid. If someone was a Valid then they had the superior genes and they were fit for society. An invalid was someone who didn’t have the right genetic makeup and were not fit for society. Of course the word has automatic negative connotations.
The auto id systems are not unlike our own. Don’t we have laws against discriminating on the basis of race? But an ID (especially one with a photo) may have that info. Just as the id system there just states the facts. The employers use genetic testing but in voice over Vincent explaines how this is done secretly and if you don’t measure up then a different reason is manufactured for not hiring.
Plus the Gattaca corp is obviously a very large and powerful company. Big companies like that sometimes bend the law every now and then.
The relentless stylishness was taken too far. Okay, okay, everybody wears black and drives around in vintage-looking automobiles and lives in apartments with giant staircases and listens to opera and whatnot, but why were the astronauts at the end of the movie going to Saturn wearing jackets and ties? Were they expecting to hold a dinner party on Titan?
My favorite blooper in Gattica is near the end where the invalid (I don’t remember the actors name and I can’t be arsed to look it up at IMDB) enters the incinerator, closes and latches the door, and then presses a button to fire up the incinerator, thereby killing himself.
Now, living here in the South I’m not too familiar with furnaces and incinerators and the like, but I seriously doubt that any incinerator ever made would have an activation button on the inside. I could be wrong, though…
The genes that turn people into product-liability lawyers had long been eliminated.
I loved that image. Why do you have to dress in dorky jumpsuits or uniforms? And it fits so well with the sterile corporate theme of the whole movie.
By the way, there was an NPR segment about the first human to be screened for almost all known genetic disorders. I think they said the service will soon be available commercially.
“By today’s standards” is pretty faint praise, especially when you have people praising the depth of “The Matrix.” :rolleyes:
OK:
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Vincent has a heart condition bad enough to show up on his EKG. For Gattaca to keep him from going into space was potentially saving his life. What was wrong with that?
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What’s the point of constant genetic testing? At hiring, sure (but see point 4). But every day? Spending the time and money to test every single employee? Why? For the one case in a million where there’s an imposter? Wouldn’t a simple picture ID accomplish exactly the same thing at a fraction of the cost in time and money?
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Same thing for the medical monitoring. Why tie up the time and equipment and a monthly checkup will do the job?
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You hire someone solely on the basis of his genetics? Doesn’t competency count for anything?
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You have a national database of everyone’s genetic code, but you forget to indicate that the person was in a car crash and was paralyzed?
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You have a database of everyone’s genetic code. Why not hack into it and change your designation? Hackers could make good money selling this service. Even more likely, the people who keep the database can be bribed (there would have to be thousands of entry points, and plenty of low-level medical clerks who would be willing to do so). One $50,000 payment and you’re safe for life. But, of course, it doesn’t look at neat as the rigamarole they show.
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The doctor knows from the start that Vincent is in-valid and is willing to shield him. Why not tell Vincent this? Why hang him up to dry?
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Everyone in the society is committed to screening out in-valids, yet when Vincent is revealed, no one cares. So why are they supporting the system? It would be like someone running a southern lunch counter in the 50s supporting segregation, but then serving a black man who sat down there.
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The idea that a person wouldn’t be considered a murderer because he had the right genetic code is just plain silly. Murder isn’t a genetic trait.
You say you never thought about it much, and I understand that. The movie isn’t one that stands up to much thought; it is as mindless as “Super Mario Brothers.” However, since the movie is supposedly trying to make a thoughtful point, it should stand up to a little thought instead of collapsing.
- I think the implication was that the medical monitoring was far more rigorous than necessary, for screening purposes.
- To prevent exactly what the main character was doing.
- Presumably the genetics is just a prerequisite - unless you have good enough genes they won’t even consider you for the job. The main character was smart enough to pass everything but the genetic screening.
- It was stated that the accident happened overseas and was not documented.
- Improved computer security. Why would you assume it’s possible to hack the system?
- I don’t think he was the only doctor at Gattaca.
- Racial profiling happens even now. I think that was the point of the movie - genetics has become so important that people wouldn’t dream of a “valid” (and a Gattaca man at that) would commit a crime.
I’m afraid I can’t remember details about 3 and 8. I’ll have to rent the movie again some time…
I disagree with all of your points, Chuck: I think you’re not accepting the movie’s central premise, that society has determined that nature, rather than nurture, wholly defines a person. Society has reduced everyone to their genetic code.
That’s for you to decide – that’s why it’s a thought-provoking movie. The movie’s central theme was that a strong will can conquer nature itself, that nature doesn’t determine everything. This is not a plot hole; it’s a disagreement you have with the story’s theme.
Have you never known someone with a fake ID? They’re pretty cheap – free, if you have a willing friend who looks like you. In a high-security place like Gattaca, presumably they’re willing to pay for an ID method that’s much harder to fool. We can infer that the blood-drop ID method is more foolproof and/or less expensive than, say, a fingerprint scanner. To answer your question: no.
This isn’t a sentence, so I’m gonna have to guess what you mean. Gattaca obviously has extremely fierce physical requirements for its astronauts; I’m guessing they monitor their people no more often than does NASA.
Not in this society – competence is presumed to derive from genetics. This is the movie’s premise; it’s not a plot hole.
Car crashes and resulting paralysis aren’t reflected in a genetic code. The movie’s premise, again, is that nature (i.e., genetics) defines a person; the database therefore include genetic information. This is a consistency, not an inconsistency.
Maybe it’s got good security on it. I’ve never heard of anyone hacking into Amazon’s database; from what I’ve read, credit information is stored on a computer that has a one-way line from the Web servers. It can receive information, but it can’t send information back to the servers. A reverse arrangement (in which the database can send information, but cannot receive information) would make for powerful protection.
And maybe they don’t use Microsoft products in the Gattaca universe, so hacking is much harder. This is hardly an inconsistency.
Why should he tell him? It’d just put them both in danger; if he admits his knowledge to Vincent, and Vincent gets caught, then the doctor might be guilty of conspiracy. Best to play dumb.
Three people find out during the movie: Vincent’s lover (who has a crisis of faith over it), Vincent’s doctor (who has a personal reason for hating the system – his son), and Vincent’s brother (who has a serious conflict of loyalty over it). They all do care about the issue, care passionately, but they have complex motives and internal conflicts.
Again, the premise of the movie is that genetics defines a person. It’s not that they would find someone not guilty of the crime because of their genetics – it’s that they find it inconceivable someone with “good” genes would do a crime associated with people with “bad” genes. Again, this is consistent with the rest of the movie.
I’m amazed that you consider all these things problems; quite the contrary, I think they show the movie’s strength of vision. The characters are quietly defined, the visuals are beautiful, the story is almost fairy-tale-like, the symbolism is excellent. It’s one of my favorite speculative movies ever.
I’ve never seen Super Mario Brothers, however, so I can’t agree or disagree with your comparison there.
Daniel
Astronauts going to Saturn in business suits?
I would like to believe that this story…set sometime in the future several decades from now…exists in a world with technology (not shown or explained on screen) far enough advanced that a spacecraft can travel to Saturn in a few days or weeks; perhaps the drive system is a thermonuclear rocket, or some kind of gravity drive.
The ship itself is probably a combination business class/cruise ship.
I’m reviving this thread because it was mentioned elsewhere and I wanted to refute the points made.
I understand the premise. But the logistics don’t hold up. Society has reduced everyone to a genetic code, yet the society doesn’t even believe that this is true. People break the law, but no one is upset by this. If the society believes this, Vincent is a threat to the society. He’s challenging their assumptions; thus they would strike back at him. But he’s left alone. So the very basis of that society is challenged. Try challenging the basic assumptions of any society and see how far you get.
Note that the film isn’t smart enough to challenge our assumptions about this: it agrees that all this is bad from start to finish. I wouldn’t have demanded it, but a truly great film on the subject would have made the audience think that maybe there was something good about this DNA testing after all.
(Vincent’s heart condition)
Name the circumstances where sending someone up into space with a bad heart is a good idea. If Vincent’s heart condition wasn’t an issue, why is he so afraid it gets discovered, genetics or not? A strong will does nothing to prevent a heart attack. It was a mistake on the part of the director to make this Vincent’s weakness, because it puts Gattaca on the right side of the issue.
Oh, please. In a high security place they check your identity when you apply. They do background checks. They want to know what you have done in the past. DNA does not tell you any of this, and it’s preposterous to believe that any society would determine security or competence solely on something like that.
They way it would work, given the premise of the move, is to give fake DNA when you’re being hired, because they will check. But they don’t have to check after that – they issue you an ID card. No need to fake one. Or use fingerprints or retinal scans to show identity. You cannot assume a DNA analysis is as cheap and easy – it involves taking blood and processing it. There is no way in hell it can be cheaper or easier than any other method.
If the physical requirements are so fierce, then kicking Vincent out of the program (or giving him a desk job) is the right thing to do. Vincent was hiding something that could have cost his life and maybe the lives of others on the mission.
In any case, I will agree that the medical monitoring made sense, since it didn’t have anything to do with the DNA identification.
That’s a pretty stupid society then. That scene was the one that killed the movie for me. It was such a “What the fuck?” that I saw the entire stack of cards of this society tumble down. It made absolutely no sense at all. Two seconds of thought makes it clear that it’s ridiculous (if someone had great genetics, yet never went to medical school, would you hire him as a doctor?), yet everyone is willing to support those false premises all the time. There is absolutely no way the society could function on this basis, since you’d be hiring incompetent people solely on the basis of their genetics. It wouldn’t take very long for people to realize the system wasn’t working – far shorter than it was portrayed as being in existence.
And if you’re saying that they can find a person’s competence in this way, you’re not talking about genetics, but a magic spell that has nothing to do with DNA.
So, you really think that in world building you can come up with some unsupportable premise and pretend it’s a real society? Things have to make some sort of logical sense and you have to think out the implications of your premise (which the movie resolutely does not).
For instance, why are there no one who questioned the jury-rigged basis of this society. An In-Valid (a terribly tone-deaf term, BTW) who said, “Fuck you. I can do the job.” A Valid who noticed the incompetence of the people around him and couldn’t support the system? Hell, even in the antebellum South there were some people who thought slavery was wrong. But not in Gattaca.
Look, they are absolutely paranoid in this society that someone might be faking his DNA. If not, they wouldn’t go through all the checks, since they don’t make any sort of logical sense. Genetics for a job? Maybe (though any knowledge of how genetics works would show this to be absurd). But not every day.
The security is a valid point. But every system has its weak points. In the society as portrayed, some of the people who manage the database would be doing good business altering records. Especially since no one really believes in the system anyway. Once again, the movie does not think out its premise.
Yes. After all, see what happened to Vincent after he was discovered. He was thrown into a prison and tortured until an angry mob broke in and lynched him from the tallest tree. Oh, wait. No, he was punished by being able to achieve his one great ambition in life. That certainly will discourage people!
The doctor’s behavior made no sense, either, since, even if he didn’t tell Vincent, he wouldn’t have spent his time making comments that he knew were threatening. He spends the entire movie being a very threatening figure in every interaction he has with Vincent. Why would he do that if he’s sympathizing? Why go out of your way to say these things?
Yet they receive no punishment for what they do. If the society were truly as portrayed, they’d all be in big trouble. Yet no one is punished, and Vincent is rewarded. This is completely inconsistent with the premise of the film.
As in all logic, when you start with a false premise (and the movie clearly indicates it’s false), you end up with a false conclusion. Yes, the characters behave this way, but it’s inconceivable that they would ever come to such a conclusion in the first place.
You certainly have the right to like it. I prefer a movie that actually works out the science fictional premise with some rigor. It starts with a premise, doesn’t support it, undercuts it at every step, doesn’t work out the implications of the premise, and finally comes to a conclusion that is what’s known in the SF trade as a motherhood statement. It’s sloppy science fiction and poor drama. I’ll grand the visuals, but visuals are they least important part of art.
Of course not. You don’t wear businesswear to a dinner party; that requires black tie.
And it’s entirely possible for someone to be both a “faith birth” and have a superior genetic code.
Silly, silly movie. You don’t need to go into details to explain the silliness. Just think of this:
Society agrees that people like [main character] are inferior and not capable of doing certain jobs. All the smart people agree with this idea, based on some kind of genetic screening (the details of which are not explained and not aimed at people who actually understand genetics). But he succeeds anyway - becomes one of the best and brightest.
So where does that leave everyone? Hmm, I guess we really fucked up with that whole genetic screening idea huh? Hmmmm.
It’s not like it’s unheard of for society to ignore or explain away cases that run contrary to their preconceived notions. See: the never-ending questions surrounding black quarterbacks.
I’m surprised that anyone would care enough to refute any ten-year-old thread, much less one about a film that I and probably 99.999 percent of the population not related to Ethan Hawke had long forgotten about.
It’s the Demolition Man problem. Vincent implies (or possibly comes right out and says it, I can’t remember) that his generation was the last one to feature a significant number of babies born from parents who didn’t pre-natally manipulate their kid’s genes. But in the span of 25 years (short enough that all the people in charge must be in-valids), society has decided that discrimination by genetic code is A-OK. I realized that about five minutes after I shut off the movie:
“Holy shit! That was just as profound as my friends said it was! The world of Gattaca really is just a few years away! Soon, all the elderly politicians will pass laws that make in-valids illegal… wait a minute.”
It’s the same reason I never watched Idiocracy, because it’s held up as profound in the same way when all you need to do is watch the trailer to realize that “smart” people want it to be true to validate some kind of “stupid people are stupid” worldview.
Anyone who still thinks there are sportswriters genuinely concerned about black quarterbacks and their level of competency versus white quarterbacks hasn’t followed football in a decade. Maybe longer.
What do modern airline pilots wear? I didn’t get the impression they were signing up for a science mission, but were competing to get on a much sought after commercial run.