"Gattaca" - what does "invalid" mean?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@RealityChuck

I understand the premise. But the logistics don’t hold up. Society has reduced everyone to a genetic code, yet the society doesn’t even believe that this is true. People break the law, but no one is upset by this. If the society believes this, Vincent is a threat to the society. He’s challenging their assumptions; thus they would strike back at him. But he’s left alone. So the very basis of that society is challenged. Try challenging the basic assumptions of any society and see how far you get.

I don’t believe you do understand the premise of the film. First, there’s nothing to indicate that society doesn’t believe the bit about genetic codes. Society as a whole doesn’t find out about people breaking the law, so there’s no way for society to strike back. The three people who DO find out about the lawbreaking are all conflicted about it, but have good reasons not to reveal Vincent; a fourth person comes really close to finding out, and had he found out, the implication was overwhelming that Vincent would have been in deep shit.

Note that the film isn’t smart enough to challenge our assumptions about this: it agrees that all this is bad from start to finish. I wouldn’t have demanded it, but a truly great film on the subject would have made the audience think that maybe there was something good about this DNA testing after all.

(Vincent’s heart condition)
Name the circumstances where sending someone up into space with a bad heart is a good idea. If Vincent’s heart condition wasn’t an issue, why is he so afraid it gets discovered, genetics or not? A strong will does nothing to prevent a heart attack. It was a mistake on the part of the director to make this Vincent’s weakness, because it puts Gattaca on the right side of the issue.

[/quote]

These two paragraphs contradict each other. There’s a reason the author gave Vincent a condition that could legitimately threaten the space mission. Hmm…maybe there was something good about this DNA testing after all. This is where the ambiguity comes from.

Oh, please. In a high security place they check your identity when you apply. They do background checks. They want to know what you have done in the past. DNA does not tell you any of this, and it’s preposterous to believe that any society would determine security or competence solely on something like that.

I don’t remember exactly how this scene worked, but it’s also clear that the DNA acts as a foolproof ID, connecting a person with a database. The point behind stealing the other guy’s ID was partly to get his DNA, but also to get linked to his history in the database–he went on and on to describe himself as an overachiever. A background check would pull up that other guy’s stellar background. They based the check off the DNA, not off visuals, since you can lie about visuals but not (presumably) about DNA.

You cannot assume a DNA analysis is as cheap and easy – it involves taking blood and processing it. There is no way in hell it can be cheaper or easier than any other method.

This is where you reject the premise of the movie. The premise of the movie is that it’s cheap enough to use as they use it in the movie. If science can’t ever reach that point, then don’t bother watching a movie where they suggest it can.

Do you similarly see FTL travel a fatal flaw, since there’s no way in hell that could work, either?

That’s a pretty stupid society then. That scene was the one that killed the movie for me. It was such a “What the fuck?” that I saw the entire stack of cards of this society tumble down. It made absolutely no sense at all. Two seconds of thought makes it clear that it’s ridiculous (if someone had great genetics, yet never went to medical school, would you hire him as a doctor?), yet everyone is willing to support those false premises all the time. There is absolutely no way the society could function on this basis, since you’d be hiring incompetent people solely on the basis of their genetics. It wouldn’t take very long for people to realize the system wasn’t working – far shorter than it was portrayed as being in existence.

Once again, that’s off-base. The DNA check references a database that pulls up the false identity’s qualifications.

For instance, why are there no one who questioned the jury-rigged basis of this society. An In-Valid (a terribly tone-deaf term, BTW) who said, “Fuck you. I can do the job.” A Valid who noticed the incompetence of the people around him and couldn’t support the system? Hell, even in the antebellum South there were some people who thought slavery was wrong. But not in Gattaca.

Must every antebellum South movie involve scenes with abolitionists? Even then, I vaguely seem to recall footage of Invalid protestors at some point. But even if those weren’t there, they don’t need to be there, because that’s not what the movie was about.

After all, see what happened to Vincent after he was discovered. He was thrown into a prison and tortured until an angry mob broke in and lynched him from the tallest tree. Oh, wait. No, he was punished by being able to achieve his one great ambition in life. That certainly will discourage people!

What? He wasn’t discovered!

The doctor’s behavior made no sense, either, since, even if he didn’t tell Vincent, he wouldn’t have spent his time making comments that he knew were threatening. He spends the entire movie being a very threatening figure in every interaction he has with Vincent. Why would he do that if he’s sympathizing? Why go out of your way to say these things?

What comments specifically do you have in mind? I recall him just doing his job of testing Vincent regularly.

You certainly have the right to like it. I prefer a movie that actually works out the science fictional premise with some rigor. It starts with a premise, doesn’t support it, undercuts it at every step, doesn’t work out the implications of the premise, and finally comes to a conclusion that is what’s known in the SF trade as a motherhood statement. It’s sloppy science fiction and poor drama. I’ll grand the visuals, but visuals are they least important part of art.

In this, and your review of other movies, I come to a different conclusion about your tastes. I think that you see flaws in movies that simply aren’t there, and then obsess on those perceived flaws and double-down on them when others show you that they’re not flaws. But you certainly have a right not to like the movie :).

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

In this, and your review of other movies, I come to a different conclusion about your tastes. I think that you see flaws in movies that simply aren’t there, and then obsess on those perceived flaws and double-down on them when others show you that they’re not flaws. But you certainly have a right not to like the movie :).

Eesh. This was over-the-top, and I apologize.

What I should have said was this: our disagreement isn’t over whether a movie can have a sloppy premise and still be good. Our disagreement is whether the premise is sloppy. It’s not that I have a right to like a sloppy movie, it’s that I have (of course) a right to think that the movie explores its central question in a way that preserves its moral ambiguity as well as its reasonable extrapolations.

And it does so with much less magic science that most SF movies. Indeed, it’d almost be fair to call this movie not science fiction, but rather engineering fiction. The McGuffin at the movie’s heart–ultra-cheap genetic science–is a question of engineering more than of pure science.

[Lamia]

@RealityChuck

I’m reviving this thread because it was mentioned elsewhere and I wanted to refute the points made.

Was Left Hand of Dorkness the one who mentioned it elsewhere? Because if not, it seems sort of jerky to bump the thread after nearly ten years and expect him to engage with you again when you didn’t bother to address his points back in 2002. Since LHoD has already replied I assume he doesn’t mind too much, and it’s not against the rules or anything, but it still seems like bad etiquette to me.

@Justin_Bailey

Vincent implies (or possibly comes right out and says it, I can’t remember) that his generation was the last one to feature a significant number of babies born from parents who didn’t pre-natally manipulate their kid’s genes.

You may be right, it’s been a long time since I saw this movie, but it’s my recollection that at the time Vincent was born it was already unusual for babies not to be genetically screened/engineered. IIRC it was implied that his parents conceived Vincent the old-fashioned way because they were really religious.

[smiling_bandit]

@Lamia

You may be right, it’s been a long time since I saw this movie, but it’s my recollection that at the time Vincent was born it was already unusual for babies not to be genetically screened/engineered. IIRC it was implied that his parents conceived Vincent the old-fashioned way because they were really religious.

Yes to the first part. To the second, they conceived Vince the old fashioned way because they had rough unprotected sex in the back of a van.

[Bryan_Ekers]

I didn’t get the impression Vincent actually had a heart condition - he had a high chance of having a heart condition, but during the scene with the treadmill, what we saw wasn’t a heart condition manifesting itself, but simply the collapse of someone whose heart is racing because he’s forcing himself to run a fast pace and is not quite up to it. He keeps his cool facade, though, until he gets to the locker room and then blammo.

I can see him getting away with it during the mission, though, unless at some point he has to run a marathon. Truth be told, I’m not sure what a “navigator” would do on such a mission - I’d assume he work on plotting the ship’s course and recording it in the ship’s computer before the launch, but he’s not likely to “take the wheel” at any point, and his spot would be better filled by a geologist or chemist or someone else who can do a better on-site analysis of the Saturn system.

And I’m wondering how he’ll conceal all the spare contact lenses he’ll need. He better hope some floating speck of space-poo doesn’t land him with an eye infection.

[RealityChuck]

@Lamia

Was Left Hand of Dorkness the one who mentioned it elsewhere? Because if not, it seems sort of jerky to bump the thread after nearly ten years and expect him to engage with you again when you didn’t bother to address his points back in 2002. Since LHoD has already replied I assume he doesn’t mind too much, and it’s not against the rules or anything, but it still seems like bad etiquette to me.

He brought up the issue in another thread and pointed out I had not answered his objections. So I obliged him, opening this so as not to hijack the other thread.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Again, the premise of the movie is that genetics defines a person.

I’m not going to waste a lot of time arguing point by point, but this one is the key point that shows that the film is not well thought out.

OK, let’s assume that in this society, it’s an axiom that genetics defines a person. Why, then, isn’t the Jude Law character working? His genetics got the job for Vincent. All Jerome has to do is go out and apply for the job. His genetics show that he’s perfectly qualified for it. And, if the DNA check is accessing a database, the database will show exactly the same thing that got Vincent the job (including the silly lack of mention that he’s in a wheelchair).

But he doesn’t have that job. Vincent does. Evidently, even in this society, genetics does not define a person (otherwise Jerome would be working as an astronaut). So that premise is inconsistent from the start.

Again, giving Vincent the job simply because of his genetics is absolutely absurd. DNA tells an employer nothing about his ability – and obviously, ability is what you want in an employee. In this society, someone with the right genes could be a neurosurgeon – even if he has no training. She could be hired as a computer programmer – even if she doesn’t know any computer languages. You could hire someone as an airline pilot – even if he was blinded in an accident.

So the employment test has two blatant absurdities. If it’s there to hire people by genetics, it means that you’re screening out people with training and experience in favor of those with good genes. If it’s there to check Vincent’s identity, it’s stupid that nothing is mentioned about the fact that Jerome was in an accident.

Niccol went for images and cool scenes instead of plot logic. The plot doesn’t live up to its premises because it’s so inconsistent and poorly thought out.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Lamia

Was Left Hand of Dorkness the one who mentioned it elsewhere? Because if not, it seems sort of jerky to bump the thread after nearly ten years and expect him to engage with you again when you didn’t bother to address his points back in 2002. Since LHoD has already replied I assume he doesn’t mind too much, and it’s not against the rules or anything, but it still seems like bad etiquette to me.

I totally did. Gattaca is one of the best SF movies I’ve ever seen IMO (and I’ve seen a lot), so when Chuck goes around belittling it, I initially responded by rebutting his criticisms; after awhile I just started linking to previous rebuttals, and after just 10 years, he’s responded :).

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@RealityChuck

OK, let’s assume that in this society, it’s an axiom that genetics defines a person. Why, then, isn’t the Jude Law character working?

My summary was, of course, a summary. More accurate would be to say that genetics describe the limits to a person’s potential in this society. With that clarification, the rest of your post is rendered irrelevant by the movie’s plot.

[Bryan_Ekers]

Well, if genetics defines the role of a person in this society, I’m naturally curious what happens when they run out of “Gammas”, i.e. people to fill janitorial roles like Borgnine and (initially) Hawke. Surely the incidence of “in-valid” births will continue to decrease, leaving a increasingly aging and shrinking working class. Will that force a new category of “supervalids”, genetically improved humans like the 12-fingered pianist, and while Jude Law might be “quite a catch” now, he’d have lived to see himself socially demoted relative to those that came after him?

[billfish678]

Good grief.

Our society is full of stupid limitations, arbitrary rules, assinine laws and so on and so forth and it generally works.

You guys are taking a couple sentence descripton of the Gataca world and proclaiming its totally unworkable…which is both silly and kinda missing the whole point of the movie.

[Lamia]

@smiling_bandit

Yes to the first part. To the second, they conceived Vince the old fashioned way because they had rough unprotected sex in the back of a van.

I just found a clip online, and we’re both sort of right about the second point. Vincent’s parents have sex in the back of a car (didn’t seem rough), then we see a rosary followed by a scene of Vincent’s mother in the delivery room with adult Vincent’s voice-over saying “I’ll never understand what possessed my mother to put her faith in God’s hands rather than in her local geneticist.”

[sisu]

@RealityChuck

I understand the premise. But the logistics don’t hold up. Society has reduced everyone to a genetic code, yet the society doesn’t even believe that this is true. People break the law, but no one is upset by this. If the society believes this, Vincent is a threat to the society. He’s challenging their assumptions; thus they would strike back at him. But he’s left alone. So the very basis of that society is challenged. Try challenging the basic assumptions of any society and see how far you get. .

Dude it’s Science Fiction, it does not have to be consistent or logical.

[Justin_Bailey]

@sisu

Dude it’s Science Fiction, it does not have to be consistent or logical.

Good science fiction does.

[sisu]

@Justin_Bailey

Good science fiction does.

Bull

[Lobohan]

It’s late, but I’d like to poke in and state that Reality Chuck’s criticisms are forced and not at all compelling.

I suspect it’s because he isn’t genetically predisposed to *quality science fiction criticism. *

[grude]

What is so hard to fathom about their society being bigoted and prejudiced based on genetics? They cannot believe a person with “quality” genes would commit a murder, what is so hard to get about this? You’re demanding the society be rational and logical, have you looked outside?!

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Justin_Bailey

Good science fiction does.

Yeah, I agree (sort of–I’ve read pretty bizarre borderline absurdist SF, e.g., Yarn, that was pretty great without being especially logical or consistent, but that stuff almost needs its own genre). Thing is, Gattaca IS logical and consistent.

[Zebra]

I think Vincent’s brother was pretty upset by people breaking the law.
Like I said. I love this movie. But it isn’t something to argue about. I “suspended my disbelief”. The film got me to do that. It did do it for RealityChuck and it NEVER WILL. Does The Wizard of Oz make any sense? No, but I don’t care.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Zebra

I think Vincent’s brother was pretty upset by people breaking the law.

Yeah–and the triangle relationship between Anton and Vincent and Jerome is core to the movie. Anton is a golden boy who’s done everything right, and who’s got a great job as a detective. In most movies, he’d be the protagonist, tracking down a corruption in the system. A system he believes in very strongly, not coincidentally because it favors him so heavily.

When he discovers that Vincent, his own brother, is the one who’s corrupting the system, he’s absolutely outraged. Why can’t his brother recognize and accept his place? He endangers society through his reckless and unfounded pride.

So Vincent shows him that his pride is not unfounded–shows him that, despite Anton’s every advantage, Vincent still beats him. How? “I never saved anything for the swim back.” That’s a much less cliched way of saying that he gives everything 100%.

Anton faces the choice. Do I turn in my own brother in order to protect a system that he’s just shown me is predicated on a false belief? Anton chooses not to do so. But it’s a very difficult choice.

Meanwhile, Jerome was also born with every advantage, and society says he ought to excel because of it. Until young adulthood, he does so. He’s on the path to success, mixing achievement with good breeding. Then a car wreck forces him to confront exactly the bitter absurdity that so bothers RealityChuck: good genes aren’t enough to ensure success. In a devastating irony, his value is reduced to his genes: all he’s good for is for providing false genetic data for someone who has the drive and good luck to succeed, and in the end, Jerome is discarded genetic material burned to ashes in the flames of Vincent’s ambition.

[BigT]

@Justin_Bailey

Good science fiction does.

You can even leave the word science out of that. It’s a basic concept of the suspension of disbelief. Lack of consistency bothers people more than absurd premises.