Gay clubs in elementary schools

Great Debates
1

This topic stems from a column in my local newspaper, the Kenosha News, by a journalist named Maggie Gallagher. She begins by saying “[v]ery soon, thanks to a pending court case, a federal judge may order your child’s school… to accept gay student clubs”. The column is an outline of her reasons for thinking that this would be a bad idea:

[ol][li]“Men and Women are in some way made for each other… There is a deep, rich, mysterious purpose to sex… which includes the possibility of generating new life - a.k.a. marriage.”[/li][li]“In practical terms, especially for men, calling yourself gay means adopting a risky lifestyle high in sex partners and all the stupid tricks men without wives do to themselves and others.”[/li][li]“One 1998 study of Massachusetts high school students published in the journal Pediatrics found that the single biggest risk factor associated with the development of gay, lesbian or bisexual orientation is the use of cocaine before 13 years of age.” [that one is my favourite][/li][li]“Almost a third of gay, lesbian and bisexual teens reported they had been forced to have sexual contact against their will, compared to 9 percent of straight students.” [from the study mentioned above].[/ol][/li]
It was no surprise to me at the end to find that the author is “an affiliate of the Institute for American Values”, a fairly obvious attempt (like the Moral Majority)to package extreme conservative views as mainstream beliefs.

Assuming that elementary schools or junior high schools are the venue about which she’s writing (something that’s not perfectly clear in her column), I find that I tend to agree with her conclusion, while at the same time disagreeing with every one of her reasons. I think the injection of more identity politics into that level of schooling would do more harm than good, given that the support that a gay club could offer could be had elsewhere - cities of any significant size usually have at least a gay hotline. Moreover, the creation of a gay club provides a ready target for harassment, and would increase the polarization of the student body into cliques.

Does anyone know the court case that she mentions, or the study she’s citing? Anyone heard of this particular right-wing think tank? Anyone else as horrified as I am that a newspaper prints crap like this?

Anyone else agree with her?

Never attribute to an -ism anything more easily explained by common, human stupidity.

2

No and no, no, YES, and absolutely not.

You said you disagreed with her points but agreed with her conclusion. What was her conclusion?

“…being normal is not necessarily a virtue. It rather denotes a lack of courage.”

3

Alright, I’m assuming that the conclusion was just yer basic “this shouldn’t happen”.

I say, “Deal with it.” While I certainly don’t think that there should be ANY sort of sex-oriented clubs in elementary schools, I see no reason to exclude them from junior high and high schools. These are the ages that kids really start wondering, questioning and experimenting with their sexuality. The more resources kids have, the better.

“…being normal is not necessarily a virtue. It rather denotes a lack of courage.”

4

I would think that because elementary school kids have little concept of sexual orientation (theirs or others) the idea of having or not-having a gay club wouldn’t even come up. Seems like just one more thing for Moral Majority types to get wound up over. Even in the case of High School I can’t imagine what sort of club it would be, much less “should we have it.” To the best of my knowledge there were no clubs at my school that excluded gays or were based on being straight. (I’m having a bit of a hard time coming up with any clubs we DID have, other than National Honor Society.) I do agree that it’s a dumb thing to have in the newspaper.

“Open up! It’s the pigs!”

5

Adult-sponsored elementary school gay clubs in which some portion of the content, perspective, and ideology comes from the adults: absolutely not.

Elementary school clubs in which the original intiative, the current content and purpose, and ideology, if such exists, come exclusively from the kids, and adult involvement is limited to allowing them to meet on campus: why the hell not?

But do clubs in elementary school function without adult involvement? Isn’t a “sponsor” required, if only to be an adult presence and make sure that the kids aren’t up to some kind of kid-mischief?

Designated Optional Signature at Bottom of Post

6

“One 1998 study of Massachusetts high school students published in the journal Pediatrics found that the single biggest risk factor associated with the development of gay, lesbian or bisexual orientation is the use of cocaine before 13 years of age.” [that one is my favourite]

This is just too much! I’m gay, I have lots of gay friends, and straight friends too. However, I don’t know anyone who has used cocaine before the age of 13!

Where would they get it from? How would they pay for it ? Their allowance? Paper route? I’m sorry, but this is just dumb.

7

My bullshit detector buzzing wildly, I went to see if I could find this study at the Pediatrics journal website. Sure enough, there it is: May 1998 edition.

You have to subscribe to get the full text, but an abstract is provided and basically states that:

[list=1][li]Gay youth tend to engage in high-risk behaviors, not that these behaviors cause homosexuality; and[/li][li]For this reason, “educational efforts, prevention programs, and health services must be designed to address the unique needs of GLB youth.”[/list=1][/li]
hansel, if I were you I would write a letter to the editor pointing this out.

And if I were her editor I would fire her. This is unbelievably irresponsible journalism.

8

The lawsuit is pending in Orange County, California, and it is the Gay/Straight Student Alliance or some such things which wishes to be a high school club.

We had a thread about this a while back.

-Melin

9

Geez - how times have changed…

In the late 70’s, I attended the University of Oklahoma. Other than a bunch of Iranian students constantly protesting against the Shah (whose government paid for their scholarships to attend an American university FWIW), the campus was pretty quiet politically.

Until JM, a junior & leader of an organization called the Gay Activist Alliance decided to petition the Student Union to have the GAA recognized as a student organization. Recognition gave the organization the right to hold meetings in campus buildings after hours, and to request a share of student activity funds.

The student union initially took the courageous approch to decide this was too important a matter for mere elected representatives to decide for the entire 20,000+ student body. So a referendum was held. Recognition of the GAA was voted down by a margin of roughly 67%-33%.

THEN the Student Union took the enlightened approach that the student body couldn’t have been well enough informed about the matter if they made such a bad decision, and that maybe they (the Student Union) shouldn’t after all put off their responsibility as the elected representatives of the student body. So they invalidated the results of the referendum, and voted TO recognize the GAA in a fairly close vote.

It took the university President less than 24 hours to revoke the Student Union’s charter to recognize student organizations.

I think it took another year & a court hearing or two before the GAA was ultimately given recognition.

In response to the OP, I think that such clubs belong in high school, conceivably in middle school/jr. high, and definitely not in elementary school. The biggest risk to such clubs, I suspect, would be security issues, specifically preventing harassment of kids who attended. For that reason, I think it would be preferable to hold meetings off-campus if there was any feasible way to do so.

Sue from El Paso

Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted.

10

They had a sort of gay/bi/questioning support group kind of thing in my high school, but it was strickly closed doors, confidential. We never knew who was in it, because they never talked about it. I suppose you could have stood outside the door and watched who went in and out, but no one cared.

I think it’s a grand idea, everyone feels like an outsider in high school, and suicide among gay teens (I believe, I’m too lazy to go net surfing to get the stats) is WAY higher than straight. Make them feel less alone, they’ll be less apt to end their own lives. Makes sense to me.

One must have chaos in oneself to give birth to a dancing star. -Nietzche

11

I think you may be onto something, ChrisCTP. What we do is, we start Straight Students Sex Information Clubs in our local schools. Then, when that passes without comment from Major Morality (hey, I just made that up), gay students can hardly be stopped from equal access to school facilities - and it’s a fait accompli!

For what it’s worth, didn’t the legislature in Utah outlaw all school clubs, period, because they might have had to provide equal access to a “gay students’ club?” Is that still the case?

Yeah, “some of my best friends are straight…” Uh huh. Sure, buddy. Sure they are. You’re probably one of those whatchamacallits, a closet heterophobe. (And how does it feel to be “outed?”)

“Straight people are fine. No, really. I just wouldn’t want my child to marry one…” Uh huh. (Okay. I’ll stop now. And by the way, Peace! I was just kidding.)

12

In the OP, hansel sed:

Just out of curiosity, why did you make that assumption?

-andros-

13

I don’t find this hard to believe at all. First of all, anyone can get cocaine. The first hit is always free, and if you like it enough you will find the money for it. Secondly, it makes sense that gay kids would be more likely users because they are more likely to be alienated, depressed etc. This is also why they are more likely to commit suicide.

Whats so terrible about this is that these idiots think if you pretend people aren’t gay, that they won’t have any of these problem! When in fact it is this marginalization that is causing the problems (not being gay itself). So if they had gay clubs in J.H. and Highschool it might actually help the cocain usuage. As for whether or not they should do it in school for fear of harrassment…well it would need to be kept pretty private, in order to get anyone to go. Most gay kids probably don’t want their parents, maybe even their friends knowing about it.

14

  1. I am having a hard job understanding what right would be violated by denial of the ability to meet as a club? First Amendment? In what way? Melin, do you know what is being argued?

  2. Assume for a moment that there is a constitutionally valid entitlement to form a gay club at the high school. What makes anyone think that will result in elementary schools following suit? How many elementary school Key clubs or ski clubs or FFA clubs are there? Elementary kids are more likely to have a Pokémon Club. :slight_smile:

15

As Melin said, a recent thread discussed a similar issue.

You can read the recent debate here.
http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000730.html

16

Two reasons, really: she never specifies which level she’s discussing, and her evidence points mostly towards preteens and early teens. In retrospect, her vagueness is probably deliberate. It’s much easier to dismiss the idea of a gay club in an elementary school than a high school.

I would write a letter to the editor, but the Kenosha news employs no columnists of its own; instead, they print syndicated columns. The author of the column, I’m told, lives in Texas - if an angry response by me ever made it to her desk, she’d probably just feel vindicated - she is, after all, fighting the good fight against government-mandated sodomy in the halls of our kindergartens.

Never attribute to an -ism anything more easily explained by common, human stupidity.

17

You may have been kidding, but this is the issue at stake - the parents and/or groups that oppose Gay/Straight Alliance groups and their ilk say that such groups will teach sex, and icky gay sex at that. It’s not the case, of course - talking amongst your peers about sexuality, feelings and relationships is not a sex ed course (more like the locker room of any high school) - but people freak out when they hear “gay” and “children” in the same sentence (never mind that 90% of child molesters are heterosexual men that prey on girls).

Yup. And Orange County at this point is claiming that the nature of the GSA does not fall under the realm of the equal access laws - its an educational club, and therefore falls under the school’s curriculum jurisdiction rather than an extra-curricular forum.

Esprix

Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you.

18

I’ve read the other thread, and it would appear that the claim to be allowed access to the school is based in federal law, not federal or state constitutional law. Perhaps someone with details can clarify?

19

DSYoungEsq,

wouldn’t the argument be that the schools are infringing freedom of association under the First Amendment, by approving certain associations and not others, based on the subjects the associations are formed for? And, the school then confers benefits (meeting spaces, recognition) on the approved clubs, paid for by public funds? that’s how a human rights complaint would likely be framed here.

and the stars o’erhead were dancing heel to toe

20

This info is a few days old – it’s out of the local legal newspaper.

The plaintiffs in this case, filed in federal district court, claim that El Modena High School, in Orange, California, is violating the federal Equal Access Act. That act dictates that schools receiving federal funds must allow all student-led, noncurricular clubs, or none at all.

The suit was brought by two students who claim that their civil and constitutional rights are being violated by the school’s refusal to accept the club. The school board has justified its denial of the club’s application by stating that the group did not comply with the Equal Access Act because it deals with “human sexuality, sexual behavior and consequences, and the prevention of sexually transmitted diseases.”

The students say that it is not the intention of the club to “deal with” the things just listed, and indeed they have told the judge that “sex isn’t going to be discussed in club meetings.” The paper does not report what the students say the club will do, if indeed they have made such a statement. The school’s attorney is quoted as saying that if the students were to modify the club to meet the school’s “basic requirements” the club could be meeting on-campus now, but there is no specification in the article as to what those requirements are.

The paper does note that at least two other high schools in Orange County have gay-straight clubs on campus, and that many of these sorts of club bear the same name – the Gay/Straight Alliance – that the plaintiffs in this case want to call their club.

-Melin