While they’re at it, someone should invent an anti-oversensitivity pill. What the hell is wrong with posing a simple question? The OP neither said there was anything wrong with being gay nor said people should want to not be gay. It’s a fucking hypothetical question. Get over it.
I thinke we’re agreed that for some people, the consequences of coming out are so appalling that no one in their right mind would choose that kind of hatred and hostility. However, some people are undoubtedly secure enough not to give a fig about what other people think or say. For them, the argument you mention is pretty much a non-argument.
Agreed, but so are guys. Breasts are nice and all, but not all gay people are muscle-clad iron men. Most men are quite as sensitive to touch as women; it is something triggered in the brain (or elsewhere) that stimulates it into a sexual experience with a woman for a straight man, a man for a gay man, or anyone for me.
You’ve obviously lacked some of the more distasteful (pardon the pun) avenues of sexuality.
I like women. And men.
I don’t think you understand our reasoning. It is like arguing, “would you choose to dye your hair blonde” and condemning them for being a brunette and saying no. I choose to live how I naturally feel, and I don’t think that a bunch of rampaging morons with bibles is gonna change how I naturally feel.
I don’t know if you understand how hard it is to live life with sexuality in question. I’ve thankfully never had that dillema, but I’ve seen it with people very close to me. This is the kind of thing that drives people to suicide; it is a very serious issue. It isn’t a matter of thinking, “hey, I like guys, but I choose to ignore that” - it is a matter of it tearing up your soul. I think you’re trivializing it.
I don’t think ICC is trivialising the matter with regard to those individuals who are tortured by the matter of their sexuality. Her point is to call into question how widespread and how deeply-affecting is bigotry towards gay people at an individual level. In the workplace, in clubs and societies, even on message boards.
I’m not sure that this calls into question how widespread or affecting bigotry is. It shows that even in the face of those obstacles, people often manage to take pride in who or what they are.
No, the whole point of ICC’s post (there have been many other threads on other aspects of homosexuality, after all) is to stand back and question whether the hostility and reviling received by some gay people is as widespread and as strong as the argument “Why would anyone choose a lifestyle that made them hated and ridiculed?” suggests.
Pride in oneself, self-esteem, is another matter, one that cuts across lines of sexuality to a large extent. I know people of both sexualities (homo- and hetero-) who have a healthy sense of pride in themselves and others of both types who do not. One’s sense of pride or self-esteem is surely affected by the attitudes of those around you - and indeed the way in which some gay people are rejected or reviled by their parents has a great affect - but it’s also true that many straight kids are impacted upon in a severely negative way by their parents.
The context, the circumstances, the age and means of the individual, the culture of the location where the gay person resides are very important, as evidenced by many people from overseas who live as gays in Hong Kong. I know three quite well and all of them have encountered few obstacles and have thrived in their careers (all in academia). For Chinese gays, the situation is not so easy.
We’ve had two posters already say that earlier in their lives they would have taken the pill, and other who said they’ve seen people struggle with their sexuality. I’d say it’s still pretty hostile out there.
Well duh. My point was that being subject to adverse conditions causes some people to develop more pride later on. Thus, being subject to bigotry makes some people more proud of their sexuality. It’s not the sole explanation for having pride, it’s one. It does not follow that because there are secure gay people that anti-gay prejudice isn’t so bad.
You’re right. I don’t know what it would be like as it’s not somthing I’ve struggled with or been privy to in anyone close to me. I apologize to anyone I’ve offended anyone by trivializing what is certainly a life-shaking (and sometimes life-destroying) issue.
It does, however, seem disingenuous for people to claim that they are happy being gay, and at the same time say that no one could possibly choose to be gay because of the hardship.
There are plenty of people who do choose lifestyles that bring hatred, ridicule and persecution, but we don’t argue whether people choose to pierce their bodies, choose to become Christian, or choose to marry someone from another race.
My point is that if you see anything valuable, laudable, or worthwhile about being gay, then there are reasons that people might choose to be gay if the choice was up to them.
I think a better analogy would be someone who blew the whistle on their organisation knowing that it would lead to persecution and media hounding, possible marriage break-up and the impossibility of ever being employed in the same field again.
Gay people (both my friends and many here on the boards) talk of the special camaraderie among gay people, as well as the support networks that can help fix you up in new places.
These positive things do not of course cause people to be gay.
I think it’s disingenuous, or maybe just too simplistic, for you to say “they are gay and happy, therefore it isn’t hard to be gay.”
If you want to find evidence that biology factors into doing any of those things, be my guest. I think we’d all learn something from that.
Well, as a straight male, this would be the exact reason why I would never take a pill that would make me gay. I mean really, when you get down to it, we men are hairy smelly pigs… Honestly, I am surpised that more woman aren’t lesbians.
No, you’re missing a very important distinction. I never chose to be gay in the first place, any more than you chose to be whatever you are. That’s very different from the fact that I accept what I am, rather than lying to myself and others, and pretending to be something I’m not. Though I didn’t choose to be gay, I do choose to be open and honest about it, and that’s something I have no intention of changing.
This idea of making homosexuality a “choice” is dangerous… to portray it as a choice means giving extreme religious groups the ability to label it as “sinful” conduct… when there isn’t much one can do about our own sexuality. (Not having sex is not a choice in my opinion… well not forever at least)
We should remember that its not only gay teenagers that go through a rough spot… straight teen males aren’t exactly the pillar of sexual confidence. Being a pimply teen and seeing your female classmates going out with older guys and just about neglecting you even exist doesn’t make adolescence a fond memory. Having all those hormones and no sex is a horrible torture on a fragile teen confidence… being gay might just make it harder… but its not their fault anyway.
I’m glad I survived that period… and I’m glad that gay and straight dopers have too without taking “I don’t wanna be myself pills”…
Oh, nonsense.
There is a pill I could take to stop being transsexual, more or less. It’s called haloperidol. The problem is, it would basically erase my entire personality (and give me tardive dyskinesis).
Any drug that could change your sexual orientation (or even more drastically, your gender identification) would necessarily alter or destroy a huge part of who you are. Is it really that surprising that very few people would choose to permanently discard a huge part of who they are solely so they could be more socially acceptable? Sure, it happens, but it’s really rare.
Like pretending your not black ? Or that your from a poor background ? Using fancy clothes and showing off wealth to fit in better ?
Yep… you are right… people do change to be socially acceptable but its not as rare.
Those are superficial changes, compared to sexual or gender identification.
Eh, the latter two would be, but I wouldn’t call it superficial to deny one’s ethnic heritage, “passing as white”, for example.
“Ethnic heritage” is such a fuzzy term. Am I denying my “ethnic heritage” when I decline to eat bratwurst?
I’m not talking about things like that. I’m talking about light-skinned blacks denying that they were black, lying about themselves, and trying to “pass”. Often treating other blacks who hadn’t passed abysmally.
Same as “ex-gays”.