Sexuality: Choice or not, and does it matter?

Great Debates
1

Let me start off by saying that I’m not anti-gay. I support homosexual marriage, heterosexual marriage and even a few dozen types of polygamous marriage. No reason any form of love should be excluded.
Often times, as soon as I state that homosexuality is anything but a genetic factor (I’d like to say condition, but that typically carries negative connotations which I do not intend), I’m immediately told I’m wrong and dismissed, as if I’ve just stated the Earth was flat. I’ve noticed that more often than not, people hold sexuality as a genetic or environmental thing far more often than choice – at least among those who support gay marriage. It seems that by implying that it might be a choice, you’re some how implying that homosexuals shouldn’t be allowed to marry.

Let me make clear that I am in no way implying that, I’ll explain a bit later.

I’ve seen – dubious – scientific studies about finger length and brain structure being (very tenuously) linked with homosexuality, which is linked with slight differences in hormone levels (testosterone and estrogen, typically, I believe). However, I’ve never seen any scientific evidence of which causes the other, if there’s a casual link at all.

It’s been well established that environment, activities, even regular thought patterns, can change the levels of hormones in the body significantly, especially over time. I remember an article about a study of sedentary individuals turned athletic part way through life that indicated a permanent change in testosterone, even after they became sedentary again, with the boost in testosterone being directly related to the amount of time they were athletic – unfortunately I cannot find the article, I’m probably using too many search terms. So why is it unreasonable to assume that the, if it is at all, choice of homosexuality has an effect on the hormones of the body? If working out can do it, why can’t sexuality?

That is to say, I find this explanation as reasonable (even if it was poorly articulated by me) as the idea that a different brain structure causes homosexuality.

And, as for whether or not it matters if it’s a choice, why? Religion is a choice, and race is genetic. Both are protected, so why shouldn’t sexuality? And at that, there are people who will claim, no matter the evidence to the contrary, that their religion isn’t a choice, that they’re Christian/Jewish/Hindi because of a calling, as I’m sure there’ll be those who claim the same about sexuality. What’s the effective difference?
I put this in GD, instead of GQ, because I suspect this will be a debate. And, because I don’t think there’s conclusive evidence either way.

2

Since I got to this early, hopefully I can ask you a question that will add a very significant element to your OP–one that I think will greatly help frame the debate (since it is a question people debating this issue often pass right by)–but since you seem to have a view on how people become homosexual, I think it’s fair to ask.

**How does your view of sexuality as a choice mesh with your own experience? **

In other words, did you choose your own sexuality? If you are heterosexual–did you choose to be so?

And the obvious follow-up is that if your experience didn’t involve any choice, what makes you think that people who are attracted to partners of their own gender work any differently.

In other words, the question is trying to get at whether you think heterosexuality works differently than homosexuality, and if so, why you think homosexuality is different. It’s also trying to figure out if your belief about homosexuality is based in your own experiences, or if it goes against those experiences.

It’s a personal question, but in light of the OP, I think it’s a fair question.

3

Missed the edit window, but I wanted to be clear:

My question isn’t aiming, and I’m not asking for you to reveal any specific experiences, or details you don’t want to reveal.

On the other hand, I think it’s fair to ask for at least some kind of a high-level answer–so we can know whether the question you’re asking of other people is one that is consistent with, or inconsistent with your own life experience, and more importantly, if your experience didn’t involve any choice, but you think it’s quite possible that homosexuality does involve a choice, why you think the two work in different ways.

4

I actually have no view on how people become homosexual. That’s the point I was trying to make in the OP – I may have failed, and it looks like I did (I used “is” instead of “might be”), but I’d like to make that perfectly clear.

Perfectly. An acknowledged lack of understanding of an obviously mysterious and vague section of a very soft science.

I’m not aware of whether I chose my sexuality, or if it’s entirely innate. It may be cultural, because there was no real significant influence in my life during my formative years that was homosexual (that I was aware of) or any number of other factors.

I don’t think it works differently, however I also don’t know for certain how it works in me, either. Therefore it would be presumptive for me to assume I know how it works in others.

I’m of the opinion that homosexuality and heterosexuality likely work in exactly the same way.

Unfortunately, my OP wasn’t clear, and I’m sorry about that. I had another OP written (actually, about 1/2 of one), when I accidentally pressed the CTRL+Q key instead of the CTRL+W key, deleting the in progress post, which was probably a bit clearer on my views of the subject.

That’s perfectly fine. I’m a pretty open and honest person. If you have specific questions, I’d be happy to answer them (but lets keep them topic-specific – if you’d like to breach topic, you’ll have to buy me dinner first :p).

My proposition was, and still is, internally consistent with my view on the human mind. I’m always up for new facts, studies, articles or speculations, and eager to correct any fallacies in my world view, but without concrete, or even suggestive evidence one way or the other, I lack the ability to arbitrarily choose one choice or the other, instead choosing not to commit to either side of a debate.

I do rather enjoy the feeling of pressure on my bum, from all fence sitting I do. :stuck_out_tongue:

5

I have to say–I appreciate the very thorough response, and your willingness to answer more; at least from my point of view, you’ve answered the question I had clearly and straightforwardly–something that is very nice to see in a debate that is often heated.

To add something substantive, I think the issue of “difference” is one of the reasons people are offended by the question–because they think (in many cases correctly; when people have become offended by your questions, incorrectly) that the questioner is asking a question they would never ask of themselves–that the questioner is asking if homosexuality is a choice, not if sexuality is a choice.

6

I don’t think sexuality is a choice, but I do think it is mutable and determined by environmental factors more than genetic. Personally, I’ve preferred the company of women as long as I can remember; I still do. But looking back, I think it has a lot more to do with how our culture defines and shapes gender identities more than some innate genetic thing. There are hardly any sex characteristics at all in children; how could there be a physical component to my preference for girls when I was 3?

Fast forward to puberty, and I just knew – from movies, porn magazines I had found, and just generally being aware of the world around me from a young age – that I was supposed to be sexually attracted to women. I remember the transition pretty well for being so long ago. When I was 9 I was completely baffled by why I should like girls in any other way than as a friend. At 11, I remember thinking that I could understand the appeal of breasts, considering how you’d be looking at them the whole time you’re having sex, but what was the appeal of butts? By 13 I was hypnotized by every pretty face that looked me in the eye and butts and boobs were the greatest things on earth.

I’m not saying it was a choice; but based on my upbringing and my environment (and my subconscious ideas for how genders were supposed to act and interact) I knew this was the way it was supposed to be. And there was definitely an element of guiding myself onto that path.

Anyway, as I grew older, throughout high school and into my late teens/early 20s, I began to see that gender roles aren’t so rigid, that my sexuality was only one of many, and that a lot of things about me I had sort of pigeonholed into a particular mode simply because I wasn’t aware of anything else.

So I intentionally tried to see things from other people’s perspectives. Why were women and gay men attracted to guys? At first it was more like “I’d like to look like that guy” and “I’d like to be like him”. But slowly, over the years, I think I’ve learned to appreciate some guys in an odd (to me) kind of way.

I think maybe I’ve developed some sort of “potential” for being bisexual. A few years ago, I purposefully made out with a gay male acquaintance at a bar. I didn’t feel comfortable letting it go farther than that, but it wasn’t necessarily a bad experience. And that’s still pretty much how it stands today: I still feel kind of uncomfortable about it (for reasons I can’t quite put my finger on, but I feel that it is due to my upbringing rather than genetics), but I think there is a possibility that under the right circumstances and with the right guy I could develop a romantic and sexual relationship.

Anyway, whorfin, I’ve written more than I expected to, but my own experience leads me to believe that sexuality is environmental with differing elements of choice depending on how you are shaped by that environment. Personally, I didn’t choose my sexuality, but I feel like my environment and upbringing started me on the heterosexual path with just a little “prodding” and self guidance because I knew this was the way it was supposed to be. Later in life, I’ve tried to “prod” myself into a more open and bisexual path, but it is much harder both due to my heterosexual inertia (I’m perfectly happy where I’m at) and the upbringing I had as a child (where there wasn’t actually any disdain for gays, but it was looked at as sort of gross and weird).

7

Oh, and to answer the second part of the OP: I don’t think it matters if it is a choice at all. The gold standard for morality for me is “who does it harm?”. Since it is a harmless interaction between two consenting adults, it doesn’t matter to me if it is based on genetics, environment, choice, or if you have to take gay pills every morning in order to stay that way.

8

Being dishonest, disingenuous or otherwise obstructive in an argument serves no purpose other than to make it more difficult to reconcile ideas, so I try not to. I likewise appreciate your question, clarifying an OP like this one is a good idea, seeing as how it is often a heated topic.

If homosexuality is a choice, it’s the other side of the same coin that heterosexuality is a choice.

Assuming, for a moment, that it isn’t a combination of both, and it’s one or the other, either sexuality is chosen or it’s innate, does either one play a factor into whether gay marriage should or shouldn’t be allowed?

9

As an exclusively heterosexual pedophile, I can assure you that there are physical differences between the two sexes at that age.

10

Please stop talking.

11

An admirable view, and one I share wholeheartedly.

Well, I’d entirely agree with that statement --I’d just contend that not everyone thinks that way.

My position on the matter is that it doesn’t matter whether it is a choice or not–whether people are born gay, or born straight, or choose. The reason for this was best stated by the Iowa Supreme Court in the case legalizing same-sex marriage.

That, to me, says it better than I ever could. The reason it doesn’t matter if homosexuality is a choice (for the purposes of rights in society) is that it would just plain be wrong for the government to force people to decide between being able to love their same-sex partner, or being able to marry.

12

No, it should not be a factor. The legal construct of marriage should not restrict the genders of the participants in the same way that a real-estate contract should not. Religious institutions should be free to restrict it by gender as they wish.

I imagine a common technique for arguing against homosexuality is to first argue that sexuality is a choice and then second to argue that it is the wrong choice. Some people might react as you described in an attempt to head-off what they perceive as this technique.

13

What I find interesting in this type of discussion is the implicit assumption that tends to surface that if something is influenced more by environment than genetic, it is somehow more subject to choice.

Obviously, we don’t choose our genetic makeup - but for the most part we don’t choose our early environment either.

Mental illness is something that is widely viewed to have both and genetic and environmental components (at least within the field), and yet few would say someone decides whether or not to have a mental illness.

(Please note this is in no way intended to suggest sexuality as a form of dysfunction - the mental illness example just easily came to mind because of my background.)

14

I do not believe its a choice and it does matter, as homophobia is rampant, at least where i live.

15

I’ll give my spin on this one.

  1. Humans (and other animals) are genetically programmed to produce hormones, neurotransmitters, and structural components of the nervous and endocrine systems in certain amounts in response to certain stimuli. Many of these feed back to each other, acting as further stimuli in their own right. Most of this genetic programming is identical for all humans, some varies between large populations, some varies between families, and some varies between individuals.

  2. Humans live in cultures which provide a more-or-less consistent set of environmental stimuli; some families diverge significantly from the cultural norm in this, and individuals are treated differently within both cultures and families.

  3. It’s therefore likely that the small but significant percentage of homosexuals that appear in most (all, who are we kidding?) cultures comprise several subsets – among them:

a) Those who are genetically predisposed to react to conventional stimuli by “growing up gay”;
b) Those who are not so predisposed, but are exposed to unconventional stimuli, and so “grow up gay”;
c) Those who are genetically predisposed to react conventionally to conventional stimuli, but react unconventionally to some unconventional stimuli and therefore “grow up gay”;
d) Those who are neither genetically nor environmentally disposed toward homosexuality, but are gay anyway, presumably for other reasons.

Again, this list is not exhaustive, and may not even approach completeness. Also, note that we do not know what these genetic or environmental factors are, we merely deduce their existence.

  1. Humans have sentience, sapience, and free will. One can choose to establish new habits of thought and feeling, as cognitive therapy does for the depressed, the anxious, and similar therapy does for those with Borderline Personality Disorder. It’s very likely that these emotional disorders share a similar combination of genetic and environmental origins. It therefore may be possible, I suppose, to choose to redirect one’s sexuality; tantric yoga does this, in a way. All of these techniques, however, presuppose some reason for changing; in the past, homosexuality was considered such a reason in itself, and even today some religious groups continue to see it that way (and do, in fact, sponsor “therapy” for it). Furthermore, all of the above techniques require lifelong exercise, without which the risk of returning to the old patterns is high.

In short, homosexuality is as much a choice as depression or anxiety (roughly speaking). The difference is that it causes no misery in and of itself, only when subjected to the judgments of one’s culture. It seems unreasonable to me to expect perfectly happy, harmless people to commit the time, effort, and resources required to turn homosexuality into a “choice.” If you’re so unhappy about what they do – get therapy!

16

I’ve know identical twins, one gay, one straight. So clearly, sexuality is not genetically predetermined. I think that should be obvious.

And on another level, I think it is safe to say that human males are NOT genetically predisposed to be monogamous. Evolution predisposes us to hump anything with a pulse. Yet, society expect us to be true to our mates. At the very least, our mates expect it! And most of us (Kennedys notwithstanding) rise above the natural tendency and do live a life of monogamy.

So, in the end, claiming that someone is “wired” to behave a certain way, is bullshit…TRM

17

When it comes to “choice”, rather than asking “When did you choose to be straight?” I’d be more inclined to ask, “Hey, you know the other day, when that attractive woman walked by? And you tried not to check her out too openly? Yeah, did you choose to be drawn to her like that?”. Because if sexuality is a choice, surely it’s not a choice you make only once; every time you find someone attractive, aren’t you making that choice again?

I’m bisexual, FTR. And I’ve never entirely understood how someone can only be attracted to a single gender :D. In my experience, attraction has always felt a lot more like discovery than choice.

As for whether it matters or not - no, I don’t think it does. I agree with both DrCube and Whorfin on this one: my standard of morality is also “who does it harm?” (no one). Sexuality is an integral part of people’s self-identity, and whether it’s a choice or not, I think there’s a real problem when the government starts telling its citizens that certain harmless aspects of their self-identity should be changed.

18

Hmm, I don’t think it should matter in the slightest.

But unfortunately it does. If you made a convincing argument that it was completely a choice, there would be far more people claiming that they ‘just need’ psychiatric help rather than accepting them for who they choose to be.
But as it has been noted, any argument that proves that being homosexual is a choice would also prove that being heterosexual is a choice, since it would somehow have to deal with the issue of natural desire.

I wish I could choose to like mushrooms. It would make ordering food all that more easier.

19

I think the OP is suggesting a false dichotomy – either [homo*]sexuality is genetically determined, ***OR ***it’s a choice.

I suspect that sexuality is both partially determined by genetics and partially determined by environment ***AND ***that, to some extent, there may even be an element of choice for some people (probably un- or sub-conscious) – although on this side of the equations I’ll say it’s probably *mostly *or even completely determined for most people. And that (spoiler :)) it doesn’t matter in any case

I disagree that the question “who does it harm?” is the end-all and be-all of the question of Sexuality BTW; in fact I go further that that question – I can imagine a situation where one person’s trait (not necessarily sexuality) could potentially inconvenience some other person or people, yet the level of inconvenience caused by this trait would be so low, and the price of denying/sublimating/fixing it might be so high (even assuming it were possible,) that society as a whole would be right to accept that person “as-is” despite the fact that it’s not an absolute “no harm” situation.

Also – all those comparing sexuality to a mental illness: I think a far better example (with less negative connotations, that is. Minus the connotation, the comparison is quite possibly sound) is ADHD – some people have it, some don’t, some other people (both having it and not having it) deny its existence…

Bottom line – who cares. Even if it could be proven that people make a clear choice as to their sexuality at, say, the age of 8 (and then the vast majority promptly forget that they actually made a conscious choice, for whatever psychological reason) – even then I would say “who cares?” Even if we’re dealing with one of hose rare individuals who has made a conscious choice, knows it and says so… Who Cares?!?!? (Well, except for the numb-nuts who obviously do care, but that’s fodder for Pit, not GD, IMO.)

  • I think I probably should have just written “sexuality” here, but the OP was about homosexuality, so I’m essentially hedging here… In the rest of the post, I just used “sexuality.”
20

That doesn’t mean it’s a choice; the evidence seems to be that the environment of the womb has an influence as well.

Irrelevant; homo/hetero/bisexuality is a matter of what you are built to want, not what you do. If you are gay, and you choose to have sex with women out of “moral” convictions that will just make you a miserable guy guy; not straight.