Poll: Homosexuals natural or conditioned?

Great Debates
1

what do you think is the case? genetic or choice? and why?

let’s only use sound logic here people. no uses of “this gay friend of mine says this or does that” or “the gay people i hang out with do this”…

i’ll start by saying that i presume it to be conditioned. some young boy might have a higher tendency to wonder about the same sex, a little more so than most other young boys, due to genetics or atmosphere he is in day by day. this is perfectly normal… a function of the curious natured human being. HOWEVER, what makes a man/woman gay is what they decide to do when those curiosities arise. if the curious young boy has, for instance, a dad to really set him “straight”, then the boy will “survive” this crucial curious stage to go on and become a lady’s man.

however, if the young boy has a gay dad, or is risen by his mom who is tolerant and open to this other sexuality, this boy might act upon these curiosities more so than the average boy.

the main point is that (FOR THE MOST PART) it all depends on what occurrs during childhood, since this is such a curial molding time for the young one… all the while keeping in mind that people can still be molded and re-molded after childhood and become homosexual after the early years.

as for the people who are homosexual but wish they were not… i presume these subjects were exposed to this homosexual idea at a vulnerable time in their life and without them knowing it(because the idea creeped up so slowly and subtly)… FOR THE MOST PART.

finally, i think we are all wired for heterosexuality, for obvious reasons. but, do i think (because of my “conditioned” theory) that if we had an experimental control group of people raised to be homosexual and told that it was indeed the “normal or natural” way to live, would everyone (or most) be gay? i don’t think so. my opinion is that even people who turn out to be homosexual started out being straight… if you are born with male genetalia and have the blood of a man, you will first and foremost be driven to hetero and then maybe later pulled off course by a condition.

i would love to hear comments on my theory as well as other theories. i am not trying to be a psychologist here, i am just curious about others’ opinions on this and i know some of you will present some ideas i probably haven’t thought of. thanks.

2

Why do you presume it to be conditioned? Are you channeling Jim Dobson?

So, all gay guys had gay dads or tolerant and open moms?

uhhhh…OK. :confused:

3

Okay, let’s use only sound logic here people. Except when we decide to make enormous presumptions based on no facts whatsoever, and extrapolate at length based on completely baseless theories. Whee!

How about this for a fact: I didn’t choose to be gay. Everything in my environment told me I should be straight. I still turned out gay.

That’d be one of them fact critters, right there. Now, try applying some logic to that.

4

The homosexuals I know prefer conditioners such as Paul Mitchel, Neutrogena and Jojoba.

5

First off, what does it matter if being gay is conditioned or not? And why are they exlcusive? It seems that both could be factors, and on a continuum, not a binary distinction.

If we are “obviously” all “wired” for heterosexuality, then why is it so hard to realize that some people could be “wired” differently, just as some people are “wired” to have different colored hair, or recessive traits (not all of which are bad)?

Further, your experiment seems to already be running, just the other way: until recently everyone WAS raised being told that heterosexuality is right and normal and good. And yet there were still gay people. I expect it would be the same if run the other way: many people would be straight. That’s not an argument for or against the genetic roots of homosexuality: if anything it demonstrates that some people ARE predisposed to be heterosexual or homosexual no matter how you raise them.

6

I guess I wonder why you’d presume homosexuality to be conditioned. I’d agree that if you have a society that’s more tolerant of homosexuality, you might find a higher percentage of people self-identifying as gay or bisexual, contrasted to a society where homosexuality is seen as shameful and should be suppressed, but it seems more likely, in that case, it’s that people who have homosexual desires are more willing to express those desires.

It seems more likely to me that male homosexuality is fixed in, at the latest, early childhood, either because of some genetic trait, fetal exposure to certain hormones and chemicals, or some combination of the two. You do find male homosexuals raised in all sorts of households, from authoritarian to permissive, from tolerant to intolerant, from nuclear, 2 parent families, to extended families, to single parent families, from religious families to non-religious families. I don’t believe anyone has successfully found a link between family structure and attitudes to the sexuality of the children in the family.

As a personal anecdote (although I know they’re not worth much), I was raised by a straight father and by a, I believe, reasonably tolerant mother, as was my brother. I’m gay. He’s straight.

7

Well, I’d say there’s a kernel of truth in the OP. Even if being gay is genetic (as all the evidence I’ve seen indicates that it is) I believe it’s a valid point to say openly gay role-models and public acceptance (such as it is) would make a person more willing to act on his or her orientation. In that sense the percentage of people choosing to participate in homosexual practices is probably higher with conditioning than without such.

8

I’d agree with you, Jonathan, except that I think that openly gay role models and societal acceptance of homosexuality would make a person more willing to act openly on their orientation. Even the most repressive societies have had an underground homosexual culture.

So, the kernel of truth in the OP turns out to be “homosexuals are more open about their homosexuality when in a society that accepts homosexuality.” Which, while true, is pretty much tautological.

9

Sure, but that wouldn’t make homosexuality conditioned…just homosexual activity, and it’s pretty clear, from studies of situational homosexuality that that’s the case.

10

Didn’t you read the OP? He only wants sound logic not “well my gay friend says”. Have you actually seen any of your gay friends using Paul Mitchel or Jojoba? Have you seen any buying it in a store?

11

Has anyone looked?

The fact that you find some from every type of background means little. If there was a study that purported to find the same percentage of every sort of household it would be significant in terms of refuting conditioning as being a major factor.

But until such a study is shown, I would be extremely skeptical. This based on historical evidence (as discussed here) and the fact that much of a person’s psychological makeup is affected by conditioning and there’s no reason to just assume without evidence that sexual orientation is different.

12

Well, Population Biology seems to show that homosexuality is pefectly natural. When you take mice, for instance, and raise them in a environment where food & water is not limited, but space is- males tend to turn toward homosexuality. Seems to be a natural way of limiting the population.

So- moral or immoral is a matter of opinion- but natural or unnatural isn’t. Homosexuality is perfectly natural.

13

—Has anyone looked?—

Well, i can’t bring up a cite right at this moment, but I seem to remember that gay couples raising kids were sampled, and their kids were no more likely to identify that they were gay than kids raised by heterosexual couples. I think it was referenced in a Salon article.

14

Twin studies have shown homosexuality to be roughly 50% genetic. Of course it’s always hard to do exact genetic control experiments even w/ animals, and especially with humans. Another “environmental” factor thought to influence homosexuality is sexual hormone levels in the womb. Although this wouldn’t be genetic, it sure wouldn’t be “choice” or even “conditioned”. I don’t have the cites handy, but a google search should easity turn up these studies.

It’s extremely hard for me to believe that anyone would CHOOSE to be gay. I can’t speak for girls, but just about the worst (and most common) ridicule a boy can get from other kids is to be called gay. I don’t care how open minded your family might be, the kids on the schoolyard are merciless.

15

Dr Deth
are you talking about mice humping, or actually developing meaningful amorous relationships? I think you may be reducing homosexuality to mere sex there.
Apos
I saw that report too, the adopted kids raised by homosexual couples were more likely to have experimented with a same sex relationship but were no more likely to be homosexual.
So, does engaging in a same gender relationship make one homosexual?
I think not any more than changing the oil in my car makes me a mechanic.

16

Greck- good question. We call it “homosexual behavior”. However, maybe the male mice might turn back to females if the population pressure reduces. Still, of course, as the joke goes “… but if you’ve sucked ONE dick…”.

Some human homosexuals also have a wife, family, etc, even tho their inner desire is to have a homosexual relationship. Until we can actually ask the mice, i don’t think we’ll really know.

17

I wouldn’t make too much of a deal over the “natural” issue - I think the OP is really about “inherent” vs. conditioned.

I also don’t know how much you can make of the homosexual couple study. This could at most rule out one specific factor. A far cry from saying that no conditioning at all is involved.

Also, I wonder how big the sample size could have been. Particularly as homosexuality is relatively uncommon, you would need a very large sample before you could get significant results. Sometimes studies that fail to disprove the null hypothesis are falsely presented in the media as proving the null hypothesis. So it would be interesting to see the study, though - as noted above - I wouldn’t think it proves anything in any event.

18

It’s a choice

19

Care to elaborate on that, there?

20

It’s completely genetic. I grew up with a distant father and a permissive mother. My SO grew up with two very close parents with moderate parenting skills. My ex grew up with two strict but close parents who totally disapproved of his lifestyle. There are always going to be anomalies to these types of things, but given I don’t know any set standards that differ between straights and gays (not that I have done a study, just personal experience). So given that, there’s a broad spectrum of experience that wouldn’t be responsible for gayness. Acting on it is a different story though and a different debate.

Personal anecdote:
My mom said she knew I was gay because I’d much rather read than play sports. She even pulled out a picture of my best friend and I walking down the block. He had a football and I had a book. Using that logic, that would mean gays are more literate. Oy. I just blame it (jokingly) on the fact that she loved to listen to Abba around the house.