No, I most certainly would not take a pill to make me straight. I love being gay, in spite of the fact that Rev Fred Phelps and his ilk would like to smite me.
What I’d like to do is give homophobes a pill to cure their ignorance.
Oh, and if I discovered my unborn child was going to be gay I would no more abort or give them a magic sexual orientation pill than I would give an unborn straight child to make them gay.
Besides, giving birth to a gay child would save me the trouble of going out and converting heterosexuals to the dark side as part of our huge recruitment campaign.
How can the argument not make sense. I can say to you , “I wouldn’t choose to be straight so why would anyone?” I assume you “chose” your orientation. I didn’t choose to be gay, but if there were a “straight” pill I would **choose ** not to take it.
Ya know, I’m a relatively intelligent person here, so, I’m thinking it’s not me when I read your post and I find myself utterly confused. What exactly is the point of your thread?
Okay! For anyone coming in late or anyone who is still confused, here is the point of this thread:
I have seen people (usually gay people) make the following argument in threads about whether homosexuality is a choice or not:
"Given all the hatred and ridicule gay people experience for their homosexuality, no one would choose to be gay, and therefore being gay cannot be a choice."
In this thread I am saying that this argument doesn’t make sense.
In this thread I am not attacking the conclusion “being gay cannot be a choice.”
I am saying that the statement, “No one would choose to be gay,” is false.
To gain some ammunition for my viewpoint, I started off with the question, “If you could take a pill and be straight, would you?” There were various responses and then I said that based on those responses the argument was wrong.
Some people have agreed that the argument is a fallacy.
Some people didn’t like my method in asking the question first without revealing the reason for asking.
Some people correctly pointed out that I didn’t ask, “Would you have chosen to be gay,” but instead asked, “At this point in your life would you choose to stop being gay?”
So in my last post I started over by pointing out the flaws that I see in the aforementioned argument and invited responses.
One more thing – the whole conversation is in the context of a discussion about whether homosexuality is a choice or not. It seems to me that some people are posting with the mindset that, “Homosexuality is not a choice. Why are you saying it is?”
So let me say it again. I am discussing an argument that people have made supporting the proposition that homosexuality is not a choice.
Another way to look at it: Out there, somewhere, is an ongoing discussion about whether homosexuality is a choice or not. This thread is a little aside discussing the validity of a particular argument in that debate.
If anything still isn’t clear, please let me know specifically the parts that aren’t making sense and I’ll do my best to explain.
**“Given all the hatred and ridicule gay people experience for their homosexuality, no one would choose to be gay, and therefore being gay cannot be a choice.”
In this thread I am saying that this argument doesn’t make sense.
In this thread I am not attacking the conclusion “being gay cannot be a choice.”
I am saying that the statement, “No one would choose to be gay,” is false.**
People make that statement more or less to drive home a point. Obviously the statement “…no one would choose to be gay” is more a matter of opinion. As a queer, neither me, nor my peers have used that line of logic as “proof” that it’s not a choice.
No one bases their doctoral dissertation on that sort of logic. What are you trying to prove here? Are you taking your first Logic and Critical Thinking course and are trying out what you’ve learned? I see no point to what you are doing. Given that you are a guest here and you come in with some loose logic it’s hard not to find your motives a little suspect.
Isn’t that what an argument is? A statement people make to convince someone of a point?
Perhaps it’s not used as “proof,” but I’ve certainly seen in used a lot to bolster or support the idea that homosexuality isn’t a choice. If you’re going to raise the bar to the level of proof, what proof do you have that homosexuality is not a choice? And I do mean proof, please. Otherwise the discussion is left to opinions and statements made “to drive home a point.”
Of course not. I surprised you’d even find that necessary to mention. I’m not trying to “prove” anything. I’m trying to convince people that saying, “With all the hatred and ridicule, no one would choose to be gay.” is kind of silly.
I saw something repeated frequently that didn’t make sense to me, so I decide to call people on it and have a little discussion. I thought that’s what these boards were for.
You know, your post was pretty rude. I haven’t been rude to anyone in this thread. I’ve even shared my opinions on the homosexuality/choice issue when asked.
Yes, I’m a guest now, and I’m unlikely to subscribe. I’ve been lurking here for a while, and I’ve found many of the discussions to be entertaining and informative. I thought I’d try starting a thread about an issue that was interesting to me, and honestly I’m not really impressed with the results.
I’ve never been a big fan of the argument that “it’s not a choice, and therefore we should have civil rights.” For one thing, it gets us into this quandary; but more importantly, it makes the false claim that if it were a choice, it would be acceptable to discriminate against us. But religion is a choice, and we don’t believe in discriminating against people based on their religion. Freedom of consensual sexuality is a basic human right, regardless of whether we’re talking about sexual orientation, gender identity, gender role, or sexual preferences. None of those things should affect my ability to live in society without being discriminated against.
I haven’t had a particularly difficult coming out, which I regard as fortunate; but it was still emotionally tumultuous. I have always regarded being gay as a gift which allowed me to experience so many things and grow in many ways that wouldn’t have been open to me had I been born heterosexual. I am grateful to be gay. If this pill existed (kina hora, gods forbid) I would not counsel any gay person to take it under any circumstance. I would prefer them to move across the country to a better environment before taking this pill.
Let me point out too that it’s not as if, if you became straight, the homophobia you suffered would go away. After all, straight people are routinely subjected to homophobic insults, harassment, and assault based entirely on their reputation.
I wouldn’t take that straight pill. I didn’t choose anything, but I worked to make my life what it is and I am happy with how it turned out. If however you had a Superman pill, then we can talk.
To Matt and others. Do you think that research into what makes some people homosexual and others heterosexual is valid, or is it so likely to be subverted that such enquiry should be discouraged? One of the most productive methodologies is studies of identical twins, a line of research that has been somewhat sporadic as far as I can tell. Is there any merit in such studies, or does the fear of how any results might be (mis)used mean that they should be shelved?
My stance (for those who don’t know): non-denominational Christian, who supports same-sex marriage (on grounds of separation of church and state and non-discrimination), and who believes that homosexuality is a sin (but no more “evil” or “wrong” than adultery - in fact less so - lying and cowardice). I believe fervently in the benefit of discussing this issue as openly as possible. I also believe that it’s expedient for gay people to work together with Christians like me to educate and change the mind of fundamentalists, especially regarding the need to separate church and state.
PS: my position regarding whether or not someone is born with a homosexual orientation is more open than it might seem. My major problem with accepting this has been that God could consider a sin (something liberal Christians don’t accept, of course) something that a person has no choice in. There is also the findings of the identical twins to consider. Anyway, I find rational discussion of the matter helps me understand things better.
Oh, dammit! You let our Secret Agenda cat right out of the bag! 
Roger, I don’t think there are many Christians like you, more’s the pity.
What are the findings of the twin study? I don’t think I’ve seen that one.
Whisper that quietly round here!
There have been a number of studies, though not a huge number by any means, particularly by JM Bailey. The best known of the studies conducted with partner Pillard and published in 1991 is summarised here. (Bailey, JM; Pillard, RC (1991): A genetic study of male sexual orientation. Archives of General Psychiatry 48, 1089-1096.)
Aware of the potential bias problems of inviting gays to take part in the study, Bailey more recently conducted a registry study in Australia. The findings are not straightforward - and have been contested - but the 1991 figure of 52% (of identical male twins being homosexual) appears to be being revised downwards as more research is done. (Bailey, JM; Dunne,MP; Martin,NG (2000): Genetic and Environmental influences on sexual orientation and its correlates in an Australian twin sample. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 78, 524-536.)
I find that I prefer the Christians of Polycarp’s variety, myself…
Twin studies have demonstrated about a 50% concordance rate between identical twins, which is much higher than would be predicted by chance (the chance rate should be similar to the general population incidence, which is between 3 and 10 percent).
I just don’t see why it’s so important. As far as I’m concerned, we’re not the ones with the problem. I’ve got no particular interest in shutting down research into the question; I just don’t see why it’s of interest, and there are more pressing matters, to my mind. (“In my opinion, we don’t devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks.” - Calvin and Hobbes)
Once again, I’m too tired for a long post, but maybe I can make some brief comments here that can be of help.
ICC, I don’t think anyone here is going to defend the argument that no one would ever choose to be gay, therefore being gay is not a choice for anyone. I don’t think anyone here have would have outside of a heated and emotional discussion on gay rights and morality.
Of course you’re also right that a double standard isn’t fair. If anti-gay arguments are going to be criticised for logical failings, pro-gay arguments should be as well. Unfortunately, the fact is that straights are the dominant class in our society, and so the standard isn’t quite the same. Cecil has debunked many myths that bolster “political correctness”, but he has the authority and objectivity to do so. He’s attacked plenty of conservative sacred cows, too.
When a new poster comes in and attacks an argument on only one side (and the oppressed and [on this board] more sympathetic side, at that), it tends to make people defensive and suspicious, however valid your points might be.
If you’d started off tying this thread to one in which people had made those claims, and in which you had participated, or if you were a long-time poster whose views on the matter were already well-known, you might have gotten a better reaction. But the fact is that you’re an unknown quantity with unknown axes to grind. I believe you have good intentions and I think you’re doing your best to demonstrate them. But the question in the back of my mind (and many others’ I’m sure) is, why this argument? Of all the fallacious arguments people make, why does this person want to debunk this one?
In some ways, that’s not a fair question. I don’t want this to become a board where guests have to defend the questions they post! But I do think it’s an inevitable (and perhaps necessary) question. We’re only human here, and you’re jumping into a controversial area and making politically charged arguments.
You’ve responded very well to criticism and shown a real willingness to rephrase your questions to avoid seeming manipulative. Both of those are excellent qualities that bode very well for your being a welcome addition to the boards for however long you stick around. Give us a bit of a chance. Let us get to know you–post in some other threads and some other forums. Try starting another thread on a less controversial issue. I hope this doesn’t sound patronizing.
I have depression. It can make my life very, very difficult. I did not chose to be born with depression, it runs in my family.
However, if someone invented a pill that could get rid of my depression I would not take it. I am who I am now because of my depression. There are times when I have wished that my mind could be different, but I think my depression has made me much stronger and more appreciate of life than most people. This does not mean that I made a decision to be depressed, it just means that I have come to accept what I have instead of trying to wish it away.
I also have very, very picky standards for people I like. I like male bodies with womanly minds. It is pretty difficult for me to find people I’m interested in dating. It is trying at times and I have wished that I could fall in love with normal guys or girls like everyone else. But again, it is part of me.
Having known many gay men during their awkward teenage years, I can tell you that 99.99% of my gay male friends went through periods where they tried to make themselves straight. It didn’t work. My friends did not chose to be gay anymore than I chose to have depression.