Gay marriage, gay rights and WTF is wrong with people? (long, probably incoherent rantage)

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@FinnAgain

Eh, I can kinda understand that. I don’t agree with it, but it’s a far cry from the claims of bigotry that have been advanced. I do still want to know why he feels that it’s a bad analogy to compare prohibiting consenting adults to marry based on race to preventing consenting to marry based on sexual orientation.

I disagree that the two are not analogous, but I will note that banning interracial marriage effectively makes it illegal for most Americans (and especially African-Americans) to marry anyone. The bans on interracial marriage also had no historical foundation; people of different ethnic groups have been intermarrying throughout recorded history, at least in geographic areas where multiple identifiable ethnic groups were in contact.

On the other hand, banning same sex marriage does not (as a matter of law) prohibit homosexuals from marring completely. They just can’t marry each other. Also, same sex marriage has been illegal for nearly all of human history, if not actually criminalized.

Of course, the former is a meaningless distinction which would also be an argument for reinstating slavery, and the latter is a pointless distinction, which is why I fully support efforts to legalize same sex marriage.

[VinylTurnip]

@Jeff_Maple

YAY! Violence is the answer.

Sometimes it’s not always *never *the answer.

[billfish678]

@John_Mace

All we are saying
Is give fistfights a chance.

I think one group was thinking fistfights and the other was thinking fistnights and thats when the trouble started

[Jeff_Maple]

@VinylTurnip

Sometimes it’s not always *never *the answer.

Still definitely not the answer, in the scenario as it was described. And I can’t believe that a board dedicated to “fighting ignorance” is perpetuating such ideas.

[emcee2k]

@FinnAgain

No, they don’t. At least not the way the word is commonly used. It’s possible to be bigoted against change, but the way most people use that accusation is that they’re bigoted against gays. Whole different kettle of fish.

I think you’re splitting hairs here. Much of the time bigotry is a fear of change. People don’t want to see to men marry each other because it disrupts their worldview. People who fought desegregation didn’t have to necessarily hate black people, they just grew up in a world where blacks lived on the other side of town and went to there own schools and married “their own kind”.

So just like today when people oppose gay marriage they make up nonsense arguments in an attempt to fight off inevitable changes in society. They can say this makes the “traditionalists”, but it also makes them bigots.

Oh, and speaking of segregation and “separate but equal”, civil unions are bullshit.

[Frank]

@emcee2k

Oh, and speaking of segregation and “separate but equal”, civil unions are bullshit.

I submit that all marriages should be civil unions, performed by a secular official, and the gayness or straightness of the couple is completely irrelevant. These are the marriages that would be legally recognized for purposes of spousal health insurance, filing married with the IRS, etc., etc., etc.

Then if you want to go have your marriage blessed by the religion of your choice, feel free. But, if you do the religious marriage without the secular part, you’re not legally married.

[emcee2k]

@Frank

I submit that all marriages should be civil unions, performed by a secular official, and the gayness or straightness of the couple is completely irrelevant. These are the marriages that would be legally recognized for purposes of spousal health insurance, filing married with the IRS, etc., etc., etc.

Then if you want to go have your marriage blessed by the religion of your choice, feel free. But, if you do the religious marriage without the secular part, you’re not legally married.

Hey, either everyone get’s marriages or everyone gets civil unions. Either way is fine with me.

[AClockworkMelon]

If the people getting beat up had been black, I wonder if the forum would be shouting “Racist!” if the OP had described how he enjoyed “putting his fist into that big black face of his.” But it’s a pasty white face. So it’s all good.

[Harmonious_Discord]

@MeanOldLady

What did we decide?

Gods and religions are linked.

[Cisco]

@AClockworkMelon

If the people getting beat up had been black, I wonder if the forum would be shouting “Racist!” if the OP had described how he enjoyed “putting his fist into that big black face of his.” But it’s a pasty white face. So it’s all good.

It’s not that it’s all good, but there is a difference. I hate it when people act like racism in the United States is EXACTLY, PERFECTLY a 2-way street. It’s not. Whites have, historically, been the bad guy. Like it or not, that’s a fact. And we’re still the majority, and we still commit damn near all the major, institutionalized racism (see incarceration and death penalty rates by race, Joe Arpaio’s neighborhood “crime sweeps” [where it’s illegal to be Mexican for a day], etc etc.) “Reverse racism” is bad too, but it’s not exactly the same when it comes to little things like commenting on the “pasty white face” of a guy who was almost certainly a white supremacist.

[VinylTurnip]

@Jeff_Maple

Still definitely not the answer, in the scenario as it was described. And I can’t believe that a board dedicated to “fighting ignorance” is perpetuating such ideas.

Oh, I don’t know. Assuming it did occur as described, it sounds like ignorance got fought: don’t sling slurs at a table of fags (and sympathizers) if you’re outnumbered unless you’re a) an ass-kicker of cinematic proportions or b) in search of a well-deserved beatdown.

[Jeff_Maple]

@VinylTurnip

Oh, I don’t know. Assuming it did occur as described, it sounds like ignorance got fought: don’t sling slurs at a table of fags (and sympathizers) if you’re outnumbered unless you’re a) an ass-kicker of cinematic proportions or b) in search of a well-deserved beatdown.

Who else, in your world, deserves a beatdown? Republicans? Capitalists? Bankers? Jews?

Where does it stop?

[John_Mace]

@VinylTurnip

Oh, I don’t know. Assuming it did occur as described, it sounds like ignorance got fought: don’t sling slurs at a table of fags (and sympathizers) if you’re outnumbered unless you’re a) an ass-kicker of cinematic proportions or b) in search of a well-deserved beatdown.

Gives new meaning to the phrase “fighting ignorance”. Maybe we should change the masthead to “kicking the living shit out of ignoramuses since 1973”.

[FinnAgain]

@John_Mace

“kicking the living shit out of ignoramuses since 1973”.

What, you’ve never posted in GD?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

I disagree that the two are not analogous, but I will note that banning interracial marriage effectively makes it illegal for most Americans (and especially African-Americans) to marry anyone.

Not true, the way it was enforced in the US. Interracial marriage wasn’t illegal per se: it was just illegal for for a white person to marry a nonwhite person. A black person could marry an Asian person with no legal troubles.

On the other hand, banning same sex marriage does not (as a matter of law) prohibit homosexuals from marring completely. They just can’t marry each other.

Indeed–nor did anti-miscegenation laws prohibit African Americans from getting married. It just prevented certain people from marrying the person they loved, is all.

The analogy is very apt, and I strongly suspect the SC will agree when a case makes it there in the next few years.

[Ludovic]

@Jeff_Maple

Still definitely not the answer, in the scenario as it was described. And I can’t believe that a board dedicated to “fighting ignorance” is perpetuating such ideas.

Sure it’s the answer in the scenario. Guys pick fight with other guys they can’t handle. Guys happen to be ignorant fucktards.

So they get physically hurt, and I hardly think it will make them more anti-gay. So I don’t see the downside. Maybe they won’t be so verbally abusive next time.

[XT]

Well, thought I’d touch base here now that I’m (relatively) sober. Wanted to clear up a few things (not that it really matters). First off, I realize that my OP was a pretty incoherent rant. I was still drunk and still pretty pissed off when I wrote that. First thing to clear up…I didn’t start the fight. I guess I didn’t really go into the details (and I’m afraid to actually go back and read what I wrote…can’t believe I even posted this, and here of all places ), but the way it went down was that a couple of people from another table started talking shit, tempers flared, names were called, and there was a bit of pushing and shoving, mainly by the folks from the other table. They were asked to leave, and I guess they said they wanted to take things outside (I’m not sure as I wasn’t really tracking all that great by this point). Next thing I knew, several of my friends were gone, as well as these other guys, so I went out to make sure things were ok (yeah…it was stupid, especially considering the state I was in). I went out and saw one of these guys shoving one of my friends, and the others looking like they were working themselves up in the standard way guys seem to have to do in order to start hitting something and, well…did I say I was an idiot? Well, you all knew that already. Anyway, when I someone lays hands on, I figure the fight has started…I’m not one to screw around and dance about at that point.

Next, and you will have to take this part with a huge grain of salt here (as I’m sure you take the entire story, the perspective, and the spin)…I don’t believe WE were being loud or obnoxious before the arguments started. We were just talking. Granted, it was a bar, and granted, it was noisy and music was playing…but we are all 40 or 50 somethings, and don’t really get drunk AND disorderly. In point of fact, we weren’t the ones eventually asked to leave (even yours truly here)…they were. And the reason they were is because they were the ones who were in our faces. (Full disclosure…I was actually not aware of these other guys or their remarks until fairly late in the game, at which point they had pretty much intruded into our space. I was also not tracking well enough to realize we had progressed beyond simply debating the point until one of these guys slammed a beer down on our table spilling it everywhere. I’m fairly dense, and I was also relatively drunk, to put it mildly).

Next…did I learn anything on the nature of violence not solving anything? No…I can’t say I did, sadly. I grew up with things like this being fairly routine, and I have to say that my own part in the adventure only went over to the violence part when it became clear that fighting was where things were headed. I simply didn’t feel like doing the male dance and screwing around while people worked themselves up to taking swings at each other…not when they laid hands on my friend. Might as well just cut to the chase and get it over with. I’m sure that such an attitude will not earn me many points here, but why lie or sugar coat it? It’s a good thing this is the Pit, so everyone can tell me exactly how idiotic I am, ehe?

Aren’t I too old for this shit? Yeah…probably. And was it stupid? Yeah…totally. Do I wish it hadn’t happened? Well…yeah. I wish these guys had just left us alone, and I wish that people didn’t feel as they do on this subject…and don’t feel that they need to resort to the kinds of vile things that were said, or the need to show ‘gays and their faggy friends’ whatever these bozos thought they were showing us (how to bleed mostly, from the hazy memories I have).

Couple of last things. Should we have kept our opinions to ourselves and not discussed such a sensitive thing in public? WTF? Is this the fucking dark ages? We can’t talk about gay issues in public because if we do then it might piss some guys off and make them want to beat the crap out of us? Fuck THAT. And if you think that, fuck you too.

Finally, since I know some of you are dying to know, did I get my lumps? Yeah…I got a moderate set of lumps. My little finger on my left hand is broken (no idea how…afaik, didn’t hit anyone with the left, might have been when I threw one of the guys). I also have a black eye. I don’t think anyone was hurt to badly, though I think the guy I threw is probably not going to be moving to well for a while. They were all late 20’s or early 30’s guys (though it’s really hard for me to tell, both because I was drunk and because it’s hard for me to judge young people anymore…they all just look young to me). I probably got a worse tongue lashing from my wife than the physical lumps too…certainly those remarks cut deeper than anything these guys did. I also got the big, tear filled eyes of doom from my daughter, which were the worst of all. That said, the friend who was getting pushed (who, to put it gently, is a lover, not a fighter) was VERY grateful, as were my other friends who were just happy not to have gotten the shit beat out of them (and who my wife tore even bigger strips off of for going outside with these bozos in the first place).

Anyway, that’s it. It was what it was.

-XT

[elucidator]

Used to be, guys went fishing. Now, guys go drinking. Fishing is better.

[kaylasdad99]

@FinnAgain

I’d still like to hear why Magellan objects to it. It seems like a pretty reasonable analogy to me, marriage denied to one group because of race and another because of sexual orientation. I’m curious as to why someone would argue that it’s not just a debatable analogy, but totally ad clearly wrong.

He usually claims that his primary objection is the debasement of the language.

No, really!

Don’t ask me to try to explain his synapse-process (I won’t dignify it with the term “thought”). I think you kinda have to be there, in his tiny little head.

[elucidator]

Well, within bounds, a bit of fisticuffs is usually no worse than a game of rugby, something like that. Vents frustrations. Crying doesn’t do any good, we need some abrasions, some contusions, that sort of thing.

What we need is public boxatoriums, with full size ring and the really big pillowy gloves. Objective referres. Cardiac team on site, 24/7/365. 'Course the soft guys wont let us do anything like that, no wife or daughter will so casually risk the moron entrusted to their care and guidance. You didn’t know that? OK, well, now you do.

Anyway, having settled the agenda, this meeting of the Guy Party is moved to adjourn, all in favor, scratch yer nuts. If you don’t have nuts to scratch, go get us a beer.