Gay Marriage

Great Debates
1

It’s been here since the beginning of time. It’s been sought out and persecuted as much as any other group. It’s right under your nose even if you are unaware of it, and it’s perhaps one of the most controversial subjects talked about.

Homosexuality.

Why are we so afraid of it, and how did we get this way?

Here are probably the two biggest reasons:

Jesus
Allah

The world’s largest mind controlling system ever devised: the institution of religion (over 4 billion served).

Now as the world is finally beginning to enter into a new era, where finally this natural occurence is being recognized and accepted, it’s time for the next step. I believe that gays should be allowed to express their committment just as every other citizen is allowed to with another person. Marriage.

The Christian Taliban refutes me by saying it takes out the “sanctity of marriage!” Hey Jerry, Pat - look at the numbers. America has the HIGHEST rate of divorce in the WORLD. Like to reread that? Well, please continue it gets better -> more than half of those people are involved in the CHURCH. Therefore I refute you by saying even IF homosexual marriage wasn’t “sanctified” enough to involve itself into this instituion, it could NOT possiblility degrade a fallen instituion anymore than what has done itself.

And as I said before, homosexuality in no way is “evil” or “unnatural” or would degrade the institution of marriage, but would rather, uphold it and make available to all so that we could be at peace with each other.

Christians and closed-minded people, quit fearing your own insecurities about your sexuality and embrace those who have. We ask for no “special rights” only EQUAL rights.

I am not writing a long essay or anything detailed whatsoever, i simply wished to briefly explain my point and get some feedback from the masses. Please tell me what the majority thinks. (Yes, that’s you.)

2

Where does Jesus condemn gays?

3

Frankly, I don’t really know what to think about gay marriage. There was a lot of discussion about it in Germany when gay marriage was officially legalized last year (the first ones have already gotten divorced by now), and I didn’t quite come to form my own opinion.

Basically, it was legalized by the left/green government which has always been pro-gay rights, contrary to the conservatives, and there have been accusations it was just an effort to catch votes among the gay population. Don’t think that’s the reason why they legalized it, but the conservatives claimed it was, and the realization of the law was delayed and impeded in conservative-governed states. They basically said gay marriage would damage the traditional marriage, the basis of family and thus the fundamental pillar of our society, you get what I mean.

I think my personal opinion would be something like this:
Gay marriage should be legalized, but not completely on a par with heterosexual marriage (they didn’t officially, btw, call gay marriage “marriage”. I think the technical term now is “registered partnership” or similar), i.e. they can marry and enjoy some of the legal benefits that come along with marriage (reduced taxes, regulations concernimng legacies and the like), but not everything. For example, I don’t think allowing them to adopt children would be a good idea, because IMHO a gay couple just can’t perform the same in raising and educating children as a heterosexual couple can.

4

As long as nobody wants me to be married to a homosexual person against my will, I can’t see how I could have a rational objection, Jesus hasn’t offered me any basis for objection either, but I can ask again if you like.

5

I don’t think gays can make anymore of a mockery out of the institution than straights have.

Gays should be allowed to marry. Actors in Hollywood should not.

6

Perhaps it would be simpler and fairer if we just insisted that heterosexuals only ever adopted the missionary position within marriage.

7

I don’t have a problem with gay people getting married. It doesn’t hurt me. Even if I did have a problem with it, I’m not sure why it would be my business.

I mean, I understand people thinking they have a right to object to gay adoption on the grounds that it affects not only the two people involved but also a child. (Mind you, I’m okay with gay adoption.) But what’s the problem with marriage? It doesn’t affect anyone but the husbands or wives, and the only affect societally is to discourage promiscuity for some people.

I suppose in my inability to see the point of their argument, I may be like those who are so opposed to homosexuality existing that they oppose anything with the word in it more or less by instinct.

As for Jesus, I’m just not sure. I find the arguments I’ve heard from gay Christians about the context of the Biblical passages moderately convincing, and yet the Bible seems so clear on the subject. Since I can’t decide for sure what God wants, I guess I will refrain from sleeping with women myself while leaving gay people the heck alone to make up their own minds about what’s right.

8

Why not?

9

Yea! After seeing some of the complete boneheads that the straights have raised, how could gays do any worse?

Really?

10

Sounds trite, but it seems to me as if it’s simply a psychological burden for the child.

11

I’ve never understood the claim that allowing gays to marry would somehow harm “traditional” marriage. I know when I’m in love I could give a flying shit what the neighbors are doing, I would assume it is the same for straight people.

12

But Schnitte, you are talking about gay couples adopting a child. How is being brought up by a loving, stable couple* of the same gender such a huge psychological problem - especially compared to staying in Government foster care?
*Not suggesting that all gay couples are loving or stable, but those who made it through the adoption process would be.

I wonder if this is too much of a hijack, and should really be its own thread?

13

How about leaving the gay adoption issues for another thread (in which I will gladly participate since sweden has now legalised said adoptions), and keep this one on the issue of gay marriage as the OP asked?

3 years ago I “entered into a registered partnership” with my then girlfriend of 5 years. On one level I would have loved to boycott the whole thing, because “registered partnership” sounds like we went into business.

The differences between registered partnership and marriage are infentisimal in practise, I can only assume that the differences in name is to protect those who would feel their own marriage was somehow devalued by the fact that myself and my girl had (almost) the same legal status as them.

So why did I get hitched? Well, if I get in a car-crash, it is MrsIteki that I want to make my medical decisions. Similarly, if something should (god forbid) happen to her, I want to be able to visit her in the hospital without being told its “family only” regardless of whether we have been together for 30 years or not. Should one of us die, I don’t want for either of us to have to leave the home we have built together. The practical reasons I did it were to protect us. Same as anyone.

The main reason tho, again, same as just about anyone who gets hitched of their own free will, was cos I wanted to have a big ass party and affirm to all our friends and family that we are in it for the long haul, that we love eachother to bits and want to take care of eachother.

In sweden all weddings are civil ceremonys. Those who wish can combine it with a religious ceremony in a church or so. One of the differences between Reg.Par. and marriage is that churches can refuse to host a Reg.Par. without it being discrimination. This does however not mean that you cannot have religious or church-hosted Reg.Par. ceremonys, just means you have to find one willing to participate.

Since the girlf is more or less an athiest, and I am a fairly lapsed catholic but believe in god, we chose to have the ceremony part outdoors in a beautiful garden on one of Stockholms islands. The guy doing the ceremony was a priest, but wore just his collar (well not just but you know what I mean!) and before the civil part of the ceremony read a “not-too-goddy” (as MrsIteki would say) prayer, (the “faith, hope and love, but above all these love” one) and also laid a blessing on the rings (since the church wouldnt let him bless the relationship, he blessed the rings as a symbolic blessing of the relationship). The sun shone from the sky despite the fact that it had rained all week, the flowers around us smelled fantastic and looked even better, and I nearly cried when MrsItekis 80 year old granny patted my cheek and said “God made this place and it is more beautiful than any church ever built”. We then went inside to eat a fantastic meal, and partied all night long, I had to be literally forced into a taxi when it was time to go home :smiley:

I hope this explains a little of where I stand on the issue, in other words that I hate that many see my marriage as being a “second rate” or “pretend” marriage and I hate that it is called Registered Partnership cos it sounds fucking dorky and unromantic, BUT I love being married, and I love my wife, and I am happy that we have at least now some protection if something should ever happen that warrants it.

I hope this also gives a little more personal view of the issue, since I know that for a lot of straight people, the only exposure they have to the concept is whacky ceremonies shown on TV with drag queens being married by a poodle etc (not knocking that mind, to each their own, it is at least as classy as straights being married under-water or in star-treck uniforms).

14

Iteki, the whole thing sounds wonderful, but that part made me smile the most.

I’ll start a new thread about the adoption issue.

15

Hehehe, it sounds a bit hokey in english, but you should see this little old woman, her and her husband are wonderful people and are truely “good christians” :slight_smile: It just really fit with the day…

16

So are religions and homosexuality mutually exclusive? Are there no gay Christians out there? If you are a gay Christian, how do you reconcile who you are with your religion?

I’m straight, but I have no problems with gays as long as there is no public display of affection (same for straights.)

Marriage gives people legal protection and (some) tax benefits. In some places, no extra paperwork is needed for a spouse to inherit if the other dies. Committed gays do not have this same protection, which I believe is wrong. Who and how you love does not affect me, as long as you both are consenting adults.

17

I think that those who believe homosexuality is wrong, feel that way because they view sex as a way to reproduce, obvously two people of the same sex cannot do that. Therefore it’s seen as unnatural.

My own personal belief is that two consenting adults should be in any type of sexual relationship they want. I don’t feel the government should have anything to do with it. I do think that marriage is a legal contract and should be open to homosexuals. In the U.S. we are supposed to have a seperation of church and state, so if a church doesn’t want to recognize a gay contract, that’s fine, but it’s not the job of the government to get involved. Of course, that doesn’t seem to stop them.

18

That mayy be a little too simplistic (although I’m not going to suggest that nobody holds such a view - not every sexual act performed by religious heterosexuals could be properly described as ‘reproductive’ - reasons may include contraception or choice of, um, ‘position’.

19

hee hee ivylass is bringing up many of my favourite topics in many different threads, please don’t feel picked out because I keep responding to them!

I am curious about this whole “public display of affection” thing. Many people refer to PDA, and my main problem with it is where the line goes, as it often seems to be laid in different places regarding gay/straight. I have been asked to leave restaurants for holding hands with my wife, “We don’t allow PDAs”. Is holding hands PDA? Is a kiss on the lips before parting for the day on the way to work?

As for the gay christians? Yeah, there are many of them, I would probably count myself as one. Are there many gays involved in traditional christian churches? Thats another question, one I can’t answer, nor can I answer how they work that out for themselves.

I can only answer for myself, and that is that for me, faith and church are two separate things. I believe in god, I believe in the messages Jesus gave during his time on earth. However, I decry the message of most organised churches, and of those who have added their own little agendas to the gosples (Paul being a prime example). Jesus message as I understand it is “Be a good person, don’t hurt others”, and I live up to that about 90% of the time anyhow, which imho isn’t bad going. I don’t see a clash between queerness and ones christianity, only between queernes and some other peoples christianty. However, this is prolly a whole nother GD thread in itsself as well :wink:

20
  • originally posted by Mangetout*

I understand that. I guess a better way of putting it might be that without birth control man and woman can create a child, but man and man or woman and woman will never be able to do that.