Gay Marriages/Parenting?

Snark? I understand and know where you are getting your beliefs. And I have a fairly good take on the LDS and the desire to uphold family values. Personally, though, I think that it’s all nonsense. And I think that it’s nonsense no matter the source.

You can give me as much scripture as you can find, and I will still think that to deny gays and lesbians the right to commit to each other in a legally recognized way is ridiculous. At least in part because I do not believe in the same deity that you do, but also because I know too many folk who have lived in committed, loving relationships for upwards of ten years, and I think that they deserve the benefits of recognized marriage.

Waste
Flick Lives!

I see.

The values espoused by all good Americans can only be preserved by furthering the concept of the family.

Therefore persons of homosexual orientation who desire to start families with their loved ones should be forbidden to do so.

Sounds logical to me.

GLWasteful: I’m not trying to take anyone’s rights away or engage in bigotry of any kind. According to my beliefs, to endorse gay marriage is to deny my faith. So while I will agree that you have the right to your own beliefs, you know how I’ll vote if/when the issue is presented for voting. That’s all.

I have to confess that I’ve never had a relationship with anyone, male or female, beyond a few dates, so I’m not the best authority on relationships. But I will vote against gay marriage if given the opportunity. I believe that the prophets know what they’re talking about, and will support them.

That being the case, Snark, then you and I have just pledged to void each others votes. Which I really don’t need, what with knowing so many other people whose votes I void. It’s difficult as hell keeping track anymore. I need a freakin’ scorecard…

Waste
Flick Lives!

Bill…I think we are not quite at odds here. I completely understand your rationale for the stance you have taken.

However, there is a very strong, clear, coherent distinction that needs to be made, and I’m going to jump up and down until the point is made.

You can stand opposed, by your faith, to taking a particular action. This is America; you are privileged to do so. And you may find your faith leading you to take a particular action. With rare exceptions, you are privileged to do that as well.

Those exceptions are where the “secular ethic” of the country has found a particular action to be contrary to the public good, and so enacted laws forbidding it. For example, a member of a fringe sect worshipping the Lamborghini Countach as the ultimate expression of the Spirit of Technological Progress and Glenfiddich single-malt as the ultimate expression of the Spirit of Human Exaltation Through Mind-Altering Substances is not therefore permitted to express his faith through drunk driving. (Silly example, but it works.)

On the other hand, with those rare exceptions, the moving spirit of American individualism has tended to allow to anyone the privilege to do what he or she wants within such bounds, regardless of what the individual doing the review of such behavior may think of them. I personally consider that the scruples of Jehovah’s Witnesses regarding the Pledge of Allegiance are ludicrous. But I can understand where they see it as violating the Second Commandment, and I respect their right to refuse to take the pledge, and would defend it.

What I do stand opposed to, from whatever source and regardless of how I may personally believe, is the tendency of people to believe, not only that they have the Truth, but that that Truth must be forced on others. This would be equally true if Pastor Jeremiah T. Barefoot of the First Truth Holiness Church tries to get the teaching of evolution banned in public schools or if R. Ingersoll Jones of the National Society of Skeptics tries to get public schools to show that theism is superstitious bunkum.

When you say you are opposed to gay marriage, I and mostly everybody else posting here can support you. None of us would force you to enter into one. When you say that, because you are opposed to gay marriage, no gay person should marry, you have crossed the line into regulating other people’s behavior by your beliefs.

I could be sarcastic and say that you should not care about the judgment of God being called down; certainly He will recognize His own and save them from the punishment He wracks on the rest of us sinners. In point of fact, I recognize that you are acting from love of your fellow man in trying to avert that wrath. I happen to think you and your President of the 12 Apostles are dead wrong on the issue. That is a matter of belief, and can only be debated.

Where we come into conflict is in your trying to force your beliefs on me, or more specifically, on the half-dozen gay people that post here regularly and their several million compatriots in America. And I think their rights demand to be defended, because taking their rights is step one on a slippery slope that ultimately prohibits me from expressing my faith and making my own choices. Dietrich Bonhoeffer said it far better than I can. I suggest his remarks to your reading.

Polycarp: I just wrote a long response to the points you raised, and just as I was nearing its completion, AOhWell logged me off for “inactivity” and erased everything. Man, I’ve got to get a better ISP. :frowning:

But anyway, I agree that no one should be forced to accept another’s ideology. If Joe and Moe decide to live together in sin, that’s their choice, and while I believe it’s a perversion of the procreative act for which God will destroy them unless they repent, I agree that it is their choice, not mine.

What I object to is society endorsing this perverted behavior as normal and acceptable. I realize that what I’m saying will offend many, but I’d rather offend other people than compromise my principles and offend God.

(As an aside, I don’t believe that homosexuality is an iron-clad condition from which there is no changing. I believe that everyone has weaknesses, and we are all responsible to overcome whatever weaknesses we have, whether it be homosexual tendencies, alcoholism, or what have you. I happen to be weak in the sex area, so that is what I must change if I ever wish to enter heaven. There is hope for change and forgiveness, IMHO, for anyone who struggles in this area. Fortunately, there is help from above available for the asking, and God is well able to change our very natures. We have to have faith that God will heal our weaknesses (whatever they are) by his grace, “after all we can do.”)

If I believe that God will destroy gays who enter into a “marriage” agreement, perverting His holy commandments, don’t you think I should vote my conscience and try to save as many as possible from making this mistake? What message am I sending when I endorse a behavior which I believe will destroy people’s souls? After all, if I believe that God will destroy murderers, I shouldn’t very well vote to endorse murder. Do you see where I’m coming from? I’m against gay marriage because it will ultimately harm not only the partners in this marriage, but also weaken society’s views on marriage. So I will vote my conscience if it comes right down to it.

That said, Joe and Moe are completely free to do what they want with each other. There are consequences, though, that they can’t escape should they choose to pervert God’s commandments. This is true of every sin–there are consequences we are NOT free of when we choose to sin. If Joe and Moe decide to sin in the privacy of their own bedroom, that’s not really my business. My point is, society should not endorse their sexual behavior as “normal.”

And now I’d better send this before AOL decides I’ve been on too long (never mind that it’s supposedly “unlimited access”).

Well, then, you should endorse legislation to make all Americans attend an LDS church, so atheists like me will have a better chance to learn the One True Way and avoid God’s judgment. You’re on very iffy ground when you try to force people not to do something that will harm only themselves. It’s not even a fact that God’s judgment will strike them down, only your belief, and you must recognize that beliefs unsupported by facts have no place in law, particuarly when others may believe just as strongly the other way.

Why do you believe accepting gay marriage will harm the insitution of marriage? Did you read my cite above when a sex-changed “man” married a woman? To me, it kind of points up the silliness of believing that marriage is only acceptable between a XY and a XX chromosome couple, but not an XY or XX pair.


“Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting.”

  • Bertrand Russell

I have not read this thread, nor do I really plan to. I just thought it was something that I should respond to. Yes, I think gay people should have children and be able to marry. If that bothers fundamentalists so much, call it something else. I know as it is now, me and my SO will always have a lot of difficulty buying a house together. Almost all the applications will work only on one income, not our combined income. We don’t get marriage tax breaks. Our wills can be turned around in a court of law if they benefit eachother. Our children are often put in custody of the straight partner (who mothered/fathered) the baby. Essentially we are a second class citizen. I believe women in the late 1800s and early 1900s had about the same rights, if not more in some cases.

And if the argument comes up that gay people will raise gay children, my response would be, I was raised by a straight man and a straight woman yet I am gay.

My $0.02
Sqrl


Move over Satan. :wink: Now there’s something meatier. http://smallwonder.simplenet.com/COC.html

Bill said:

You see no difference between society affirmatively encouraging something (e.g., give to charity, and you’ll get a tax break, or give a hoot, don’t pollute) and society simply refusing to condemn something that is private between one or more individuals and their God?

If this is sincerely how you feel, you should look into the ex-gay ministries, e.g., Exodus International, who attempt to provide means for people who have homosexual impulses and believe that gay behavior is sinful to modify their orientation.

Several caveats:
[ul][li]Their success rate is extremely low. AFAIK, only a few bisexual individuals have successfully “converted” without relapse.[]They are for the most part agressively evangelical conservative Christians of the “former-day” view; I have no idea whether there is a LDS analogue.[]If you do go through their program successfully they are apt to use you as a “poster boy” for it.[/ul][/li]

No, I don’t. I think, given your views, you should be out there trying to convince them that they’re headed for Hell if they continue. But I don’t think you should be trying to prohibit them. Or, given my religious views, should I be moving to have LDS Temple services barred, since I believe that they are an offense to the God whom I love and who did not, in my opinion, inspire Joseph Smith? Should I be protecting you from going to Hell by engaging in such blasphemy?

The analogy sucks, if you’ll excuse the expression. In Joe and Moe’s relationship, the only things dying are sperm cells, most of which would be dying anyway. And they may at least be providing some nourishment! :wink:

Finally, in what way does the idea of gay marriage harm the institution of marriage? I’ve heard that argument repeated, but I do not see the concept. This is not said combatively; I’m asking you to define the logic/feeling expressed there.

Exodus International? You mean the organization where the two co-founders (“ex”-gay men at that time) fell in love and are now raising a family? :wink: Oh, *they’re effective. I sympathize with your desire to help, though, Polycarp.

FWIW, Snark, some religions believe that God tests good people very harshly so their reward in the afterlife will be greater. Maybe this will be some consolation to you?


“Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting.”

  • Bertrand Russell

You did read my caveats, didn’cha, Gaudy?

I could be very wrong on this, but I read Bill as someone devoutly trying to live out the precepts of a religion at odds with what his own identity, and therefore very inwardly conflicted. I would like very much for him to gain self-acceptance and a sense of God’s love for him, just as he is. This would not necessarily entail anything different than he currently believes regarding sexual practice. But I know from personal experience that it is very, very difficult to regard oneself as automatically a sinner for reasons one cannot change without help. Is this fairly close to on target for you, Bill?

If it is any consolation, Bill, St. Paul, Martin Luther, and John Wesley went through the same stuff, not as regards sexuality but as regards their sense of self-worth vis-a-vis the holiness of God. Any of them might make good reading, and are AFAIK not contrary to Mormon doctrine.

Yes, Polycarp, I read them, and I think you did a great job of describing possible problems regarding their effectiveness. I just think it’s funny as hell (and rather sweet, too) that the co-founders fell in love. So I had to bring it up. :slight_smile:

It’d make a good Gordon Merrick novel. Or a Lifetime original movie! :slight_smile:

Oh boy, did I open a can of worms! Lessee here:

Gaudere wrote:

Umm…no. I believe that separation between church and state is VERY healthy.

Since when is voting against something “forcing” people to do anything?

For the same reason that abortion became so popular: once something becomes legal, a LOT more people will do it than if it’s illegal.


Polycarp wrote:

Yes, I see the difference. But I will still reserve my right to cast my vote the way I please, should it come down to a public vote.

Well, I never said I’d be cured in this lifetime. No, I’m not interested in an ex-gay ministry social group. I’m just not a social type.

I see your point, and I think it’s a valid one.

For some reason unknown to me, gender and heterosexual marriage and the family all play a central role in God’s plan of happiness for his children. I don’t know everything, but I take it on faith that God is trying to prohibit homosexual marriage for a very good reason. Faith plays a role here. I don’t have all the answers, but I trust the prophets.

Well, I wouldn’t say “devoutly,” at least, not all the time. But yes, I’m inwardly conflicted. Who isn’t?

I don’t consider myself a sinner just because I have homosexual feelings. The sin is in enacting out those feelings (albeit alone), not just having them.

Maybe I’ve been a little harsh in my posts in this thread towards gays. But I do believe that homosexual behavior tends to frustrate God’s plans for us, and is as grievous a sin as fornication and adultery. I’m glad there is such a thing as mercy and forgiveness.

I’ve tried to think this one through, and come to some coherent conclusion that makes sense given Bill’s postulates.

What we have here is vastly different in kind from the fundamentalist FDS (“former-day saints” – my metaphor for non-Mormon Christianity when discussing LDS doctrine) take. They reason, supposedly logically, from assertions made by Moses (or the P writer), St. Paul, and others which are understood to be prophecy directly inspired by God. Their own reasoning is not inspired (their assertion, not mine) but is supposedly guided in a non-canonical way by the Holy Spirit.

In LDS doctrine, however, the formal promulgations of the President of the Twelve functioning as Prophet are inspired. They would draw very little distinction between the promulgation Bill cited above on Marriage and the Family and the contents of the Doctrine and Covenants, and little more distinction between it and the Book of Mormon or the Bible.

Wherefore, Bill is as honor-bound to accept that promulgation as the Word of God as ARG was to accept, say, the Book of Obadiah.

The fact that Jodi, Tom, and I, for one set of reasons, and Phil, Gaudere, and David, for another, think that he is wrong in so believing has nothing to do with the question.

So we are left with a God who created in His beloved son Bill a desire that is not in accord with His holy plan for the world as announced by his Prophet Gordon Hinckley.

This god reminds me a great deal of the Divine Weasel I postulated in another thread.

Bill, I have a huge amount of respect for most of the concepts in Hinckley’s proclamation. My wife Barb has been the unfailing support in adversity without whom I would have found my life impossible or nearly so. And I have seen the joy of a good marriage with children operating as Hinckley describes in the families of several friends. Chris and Joann have this sort of relationship. Mike and Tami do. So do Ben and Peggy. And so do Grace and Margie.

Yeah boy, if you legalize marriage, everyone is going to want to do it. Man, that’ll be terrible.


“I love God! He’s so deliciously evil!” - Stewie Griffin, Family Guy

Polycarp wrote:

As I have said before, I believe that homosexuality originates more in environmental considerations than in genetic ones, IMHO. I have no proof for this, but I’d prefer to think that God wouldn’t make me gay and then command me not to be gay.

As I have also said in other threads, I believe that the “intelligences” that God molded/created/whatever into spirit bodies had certain innate tendencies that God did not create. Alternatively, God has said in the Book of Mormon that He gives weaknesses to men so that they will be humble and seek His help in overcoming those weaknesses. In either case, I don’t believe God intended me to marry another man.

Phil wrote:

Phil, you know quite well that I’m not talking about heterosexual marriages. You’re just being silly. :slight_smile:

Unfortunately, modern science is not on your side. There do appear to be serious genetic components.

Not at all. I was pointing out that to allow some marriages but not others between mutually consenting adults is arbitrary and irrational, especially if it is because of the beliefs of certain religions.


“I love God! He’s so deliciously evil!” - Stewie Griffin, Family Guy

Polycarp wrote:

You left out the inhabitants of Sodom from Genesis.

I suppose. According to Helminiak, that whole story has only tangential reference to homosexuality, despite the obvious and glaring implications. Helminiak’s take: The actual sin of the Sodomites was the desire to dominate the visitors by having forcible sex with them; the fact that it was male-penetrating-male had little to do with the scheme. This was a glaring violation of the law of hospitality, under which a visitor to your camp, village, or city was your honored guest. Since the right to claim hospitality was quite literally a matter of life or death in the intemperate arid climate of the area, this was a cardinal offense. The sex aspect, under this view, is purely secondary; stealing their camels or robes would have been equally reprehensible.

If you detect a tendency in Helminiak to find arguments that circumvent any Biblical condemnation of homosexuality, I won’t argue with you about it.

But I do take his point. The three scriptural cites against it appear to say:
[ul][]Thou shalt not commit anal rape.[]Thou shalt not patronize male temple prostitutes.Thou shalt not indulge in homosexual behavior because it is the “trendy” thing to do.[/ul] And I think it would be quite difficult to find a theologian prepared to defend circuit parties or raves. But there is not one word regarding the behavior of two persons of the same sex who love one another (except the David and Jonathan story).