Gay Marriages/Parenting?

Great Debates
1

In the PK thread, Jeffery said:

This brought the two questions the thread name would indicate. What are your reactions to gay couples wanting to marry? I think there was a moribund thread back around Labor Day that either was devoted to or got off track onto gays adopting, but I didn’t locate it in a quick run through the past threads, so let me bring that issue up here too as well.

To start the ball rolling, Al Gore and Bill Bradley (D) and John McCain ® have indicated that they are not averse to “registered domestic partnerships” but are opposed to gay marriages with implied identity to normal heterosexual marriages. I can follow their logic but disagree.

As for the other, I know a lesbian couple raising two girls quite competently, but am operating from a universe of one here, so I don’t have any overall viewpoint to express. If pressed for an opinion, I’d say that it matters much more how the prospective parent(s) relate to the child than what their sexual orientation is. But I can see the powers that be re adoption not wanting to add another strike to the kids by having to deal with the obvious problems in their everyday life from having one or more gay parents.

2

I have a bunch of unrelated thoughts on this.

(1) The traditional definition of marriage involves two people, one man, one woman. I’m in favor of opening that to other two-people (homosexual) unions. This raises the question, Why not open it to multiple person unions (harems, polyandry, etc.)? I don’t have a good answer to that, but I am against polygamy. So I guess I am accepting of gay unions but not accepting of sexual communalism.

(2) Marriage is currently down on its luck as an institution. Straight people have run like hell from marriage for a few decades now. Pro-marriage people should be throwing their hats in the air at the idea of some new group wanting to get married. Instead, a lot of the pro-marriage people get all upset about gay marriages. Go figure.

(3) I think its important for kids to have male and female role models when growing up. Gay marriages mean the kid(s) will lack any parents of a certain gender. Divorce commonly means the same thing, in practice. I’m not in favor of banning divorce. If I were in a gay marriage family, I suppose I’d make sure the kids, especially girls, had a lot of quality time with their aunts and unofficial aunts. I’d do the equivalent if I were in a lesbian couple with adoptees.

Who sleeps with whom is pretty much irrelevant to a child having appropriate role models … after all, plenty of men do the heterosexual thang with the mothers of their children, and wind up being a complete non-entity to their ostensible family. This occurs even in non-divorce families.

(4) People worried that gay couples will turn their adopted children into homosexuals are just projecting. If you’re not prepared for your children to be different from you, in sexual orientation as in a hundred other ways, you shouldn’t have children.

I don’t think parents do choose their children’s sexual orientations, but clearly, a lot of scared straights think that. Then of course they’re shocked and self-blaming when their kids turn out to be gay. Wouldn’t we be better off in two ways if we just accepted that our offspring are going to be what they’re going to be? Gay folks have had plenty of experience with hetero culture; while they might be disappointed upon discovering their daughters’ sexual indiscretions may result in pregnancy, this just leads to a slightly longer “birds and bees” discussion.

(5) Kids with gay parents might get teased at school for it. They’ll have to get in line behind all the religious, ethnic, and political minorities.

3

Moribund? ::sniff:: That’s my thread you’re talking about! But you’re right, it faded from lack of controversy. Everyone here is just too reasonable (the Pit notwithstanding). You can read it to get a ground ing on the arguments brought up.

Should homosexuals be “allowed” to be parents?

“Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting.”

  • Bertrand Russell
4

I’ve got no problem with gay marriages. If someone wants to formalize a commitment to someone else, hurray for them.

The government’s worry is that it opens a pretty big can of worms, because governments offer all kinds of perks to marriages that they don’t extend to singles or roommates. ‘Gay’ marriages confuse the issue. If two gay people who marry can get tax benefits, why can’t my roommate and I get the same benefits? Why should they get benefits at all over single people? Why should government use the tax system to modify social choices?

5

Marriage is often viewed as a primarily religious institution, and for the most part organized religion prefers to institutionalize only the heterosexual folk, no matter how willing the gay folk may be to suffer along with them.

On the other hand, if marriage is a religious institition, the government ought to derecognize it; it should have no status in a court of law. In the absence of legal derecognition, I don’t think our secular egalitarian-principled society has any business enforcing the wishes of the religious folk and preventing gay folk from inflicting marriage upon their relationships, or recognizing hetero but not gay marriages legally as per the wishes of the theocratically inclined.

Designated Optional Signature at Bottom of Post

6

dhanson:

Just a WAG, but could it be because you and your roommate didn’t commit to each other? I think that the key word in the quote above is ‘marry’. If you and your roommate choose to marry, then you should be able to enjoy the perks.

Waste
Flick Lives!

7

dhanson, being gay is not a “social choice.”

Of course I’m in favor of legalizing gay marriages (I’m a left-wing, atheist New Yorker, what the hell did you expect?). I know more long-term, happy gay relationships than I do straight ones, including men who have been together for more than 50 years.

But, that having been said, it just ain’t gonna happen, and gay rights activists are wasting their precious time and energy fighting for it. This is a Christian country, no matter what the Constitution says, and Christians are not going to allow godless homosexuals to enjoy the same freedoms that “good” people do.

8

Flora says “it just ain’t gonna happen[/i.” I disagree. I’m sure people used to say the same thing about divorce.

I’m of the same opinion as AHunter. Marriage should be a purely religious institution, not recognized by government.

Related issues, like child support, should fall under the government’s jurisdiction.

Jacques Kilchoer
Workers of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains.

9

I’m a big fan of hetero marriage. I chose a religious ceremony (mostly for my family) and the “wedding” trappings, but what I’m mostly concerned with is the fact that I chose to spend the rest of my life in a monogamous relationship with my best friend. That’s cool.

But it’s not for everyone. Disregarding the religious aspect for the moment, I think we should perhaps change the civil view. How about marriage contracts for a specific amount of time? Those who wanted a lifetime commitment could get a lifetime contract, those who weren’t sure could get a one-year contract with an option to renew.

That would allow for hetero- and homosexual marriages as well as polygamous and group marriages (which I’m in favor of as well).

The persons in the contract would be married according to the state–getting tax benefits, PTA announcements, credit card offers and everything elst married people get. In return, they would both be responsible for any children, joint property, etc.

Flaws? (Apart from the obvious fact that it’s a pipe dream in our society) Go on, I can take it.

-andros-

“Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!” Exceptions? None!
-Doc Bronner

10

I’d be less concerned about a same-sex couple raising a child of the same sex as themselves than I would be about a same-sex couple raising a child of the opposite sex as themselves. Particularly a very young child.

I mean, isn’t it supposed to be healthier for the child’s development if (s)he has an adult role-model of the same sex as her/himself around the house?

Quick-N-Dirty Aviation: Trading altitude for airspeed since 1992.

11

Flora, I don’t think dhanson meant being gay was a social choice; I think he meant marriage is a social choice.

And, in any case, there is little actual tax benefit (in some cases, there is a tax penalty)simply for being married. The benefits accrue if/when you have kids.

“I love God! He’s so deliciously evil!” - Stewie Griffin, Family Guy

12

Regardless of the tax consequences, there are all kinds of legal/financial benefits to being married. Just off the top of my head: inheritance and insurance benefits are the biggest; automatic guardianship of minor children if your spouse dies; car rental discounts (your spouse is automatically an “authorized operator”, and you don’t have to pay extra).

OK, that last one is kinda trivial, but the underlying assumption is that when you’re married to someone, you’re a “single entity”, whereas when you’re not married, you’re two unrelated individuals.

I’m sure there are other benefits, but we’ve only been married 4 months, so I don’t know what they are yet.

IMHO, it’s not right to forbid couples from marrying just because they happen to be the same sex. This seems so obvious to me that I really can’t understand the arguments against it.

The Cat In The Hat

13

My dad is a gay psychologist, so as you can imagine, issues like this are of major interest to him. As far as the issue of role models, he believes that it is very important for children to have role models of both sexes. His position is that it is fine for same-sex couples to raise a child, but they must recognize the importance of having “aunts/uncles” who are central to the child’s life to give him role models for the other sex.

14

Dude…the gist of your post was the sort of hard information I was interested in. But there is an important ambiguity there: “gay psychiatrist” could mean “psychiatrist who is gay” (presumably, since it’s your father, coming out after having fathered you) or “psychiatrist who specializes in working with gay people.” I’m assuming the latter from context, but you may wish to clarify.

15

Former, but also the latter. :slight_smile:

My dad is gay, and he doesn’t exclusively see gay clients, but many of his clients are gay. He gets patients through normal information/referral services, and he also has ads in local gay publications.

16

Undead - I agree with your Dad.

I am definitely for legalizing gay marriages. Gay relationships are exactly like hetero ones in that some last some don’t. This is a sad thing, but that’s another thread.

I also think it is strictly a religious issue, which explains why they aren’t legal now.

Raising children however is another matter. The sexual orientation of the parents is not an issue for me. The problem, as I see it, is that children need both male and female role models. As has been stated, Uncles and Brothers or Aunts and Sisters can help make up for this, but I think the families of a couple would have to be willing to make as much a full-time commitment to this child as the adoptive parents.

Disclaimer: This is only my opinion, not to be construed as forcing my beliefs on anyone else.

trisha

17

My mother is a lesbian, who was the custodial parent, although I always had frequent and regular contact with my father. She came out just following the divorce when I was about 6 years old, so her sexual orientation has always been a part of my reality. She has had 2 long term lesbian relationships/marriages each lasting about 10 years, give or take a bit.

As a young child the greatest effect my mom’s lesbianism had on me was feeling like there was a secret at home (this was the mid-80s). I could not share some details of my home life with my dad for fear of custody issues, and I could not share some aspects of my home life with friends for fear of being teased.

The custody thing was not a concrete concept in my childhood mind, and in fact I am sure that Mom, while making me aware, attempted to really not frighten me with “Tell and they’ll take you away from me” type warnings. I just knew I shouldn’t tell Dad.

I lived in…well I was going to say fear, but perhaps “wariness” is more accurate…of my friends in grade school finding out. It took me several years of friendship to invite my best friend home to spend the night. I didn’t want to have to explain that my mom and our “roommate” Jen shared a room. Awkward questions, and then looks of disgust were what I expected, I suppose. And I went to school with the children of some very liberal people, I realize now.

The older I got the looser I got about it all. In high school I easily shared it with a few (very cool) friends, and their response was more curiosity than anything else. By college it was a point of pride, as I went to an women’s college, where many of the students indulged in a four year experimentation.

The other major effect I can say that her orientation had on my life was an early questioning of my own sexual orientation. I figured out pretty quickly that I’m straight, and even though Mom doesn’t get it, I think she understands that it is the way I am made, and not a choice. She’ll ask, with true mom curiosity, about the latest man in my life, just as any mother would do.

It was certainly a challenge to grow up with my mom being a lesbian, but I think every kid has a challenge of some sort. I was lucky that I had strong family relationships to rely on. I will say that I turn to my dad for some types of support and my mom for others, but I don’t think that is a function of their gender or orientation, but a function of their having two widely divergent personalities.

Now as an adult whether my mom loves men or women is no longer an issue. I think growing up in this way has made me a more openminded person, and has prepared me to accept the different ways there are to have a family. I support same-sex marriage with all my heart…because I see it as simply being about that: making a family.

Absynthetic

Oh and my Dad? He knew all along.

18

Strictly my opinion, of course, but I see no reason for gays not being allowed the full stature and benefits of marriage. I’m w/ the majority here who can’t understand, logically or viscerally, what the problem is.

After all, gays get blamed either way. They’re characterized as promiscuous and predatory on one hand, and condemned for wanting to “sully” the institution of marriage
if they want to formalize relationships on the other. This is mind-boggling doublethink.

Love, loyalty and commitment matter a hell of a lot more than the genders involved. As far as children go, I see no cogent proof that gays don’t make fully as fine parents as heteros. Kids need love and stability, and there are way too many kids who would love nothing more than to have a family. If those parents happened to be gay, well, what of it?

A lot of kids live in single parent homes, w/o an in-house role model of the opposite or same sex. But they have role models available, e.g. the uncles, aunts, etc. mentioned earlier, and the main thing is the kids know they’re loved and safe.

I don’t understand this, I truly don’t. Homosexuality has been around as long as humans have been human. Why haven’t we learned yet that gay people are just people?

Baffled,
Veb

19

Absynthetic, I can relate to much of the social effect your mom had on you. My dad came out (to me) when I was 14, which was also right after my parents’ divorce. 14 was not a particularly good age to make the adjustment, but I did, eased by the fact that my parents had given me liberal-minded views to begin with.

This environment certainly had a major effect on my own evaluation of my sexuality. My dad actually told me when he did, because he thought I might be gay. Ooops. :slight_smile:

Because of this environment, I was very much not afraid of the idea of being gay, so I was willing to seriously look at my own sexuality. It went all the way to trying gay sex. That experiment left me feeling quite, quite straight. I consider it a beautiful piece of irony that so many straight men are so terrified of the prospect of being gay that they wouldn’t think about getting close to another guy, while I reached total security in my heterosexuality by openly questioning it.

20

Undead Dude and Absynthetic
Thanks for sharing. I’ve always wondered what it would be like to grow up with gay parents, and my only ideas about that hitherto had been the movies The Incredibly True Story of Two Girls in Love, which, while very cute, is fiction. I’m glad I got chance to read your stuff.