Gay Teens: A Debate

Great Debates
261

Wow. Yet another hijack. Imagine my surprise.

I think this whole thread has served exceptionally well as an object lesson in why the problems of gay teenagers get ignored. When the adults around them are so easily distracted by the constant and repetitive diversions of the small but eminently vocal minority that thinks that homosexuality is abominable, the gay kids get lost in the melee. And they’re the ones who get hurt.

Every thread on these boards that addresses homosexuality has addressed the ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ hypocrisy. Every thread has addressed the facts supporting high gay teen suicide rates. Every one has been through the gauntlet of anti-gay propaganda. Isn’t it fair to ask that these issues be put aside for a while to enable us to have a rational discussion about how to get help to these kids?

I just don’t understand people whose rigid ideologies prevent them from going to the aid of people who need help. I’m further baffled by people whose beliefs instruct them to interfere with others who are trying to help those in need.

Meanwhile, these kids need our help. There have been some excellent suggestions so far; how else can we try and advance this cause? Is there any alternative to going through the school systems to make sure the information gets out there?

The school systems are obvious routes; they’re the congregation points for large numbers of kids, and they’re also the source of many of the problems gay kids face. But they’re pretty entrenched bureaucracies for the most part, and difficult to approach with new ideas, in my experience. Before we get dead set on trying to change the scholastic approach to gay people, we should consider whether there are alternative means of reaching these kids. How else could we get kids connected with the resources that might help them be able to deal with their sexuality better?

262

I didn’t think I was chickening out.

Marc

263

Ahem. UnoMondo, since it apparently escaped your attention last page, [color=red]URL=http://www.aap.org/policy/re9928.html]Cite![/cohor] It’s from the American Academy of Pediatrics and has some information about how likely teenagers are to commit suicide and what factors come into play. This site, from an organization called Soul Force has a bit more information about those numbers.

Yes, I do realize that technically some Christians say they only condemn homosexual acts. On the other hand, I get the impression they would be far more bothered by gobear talking about how gorgeous Harrison Ford is than they would be if I did that (if anyone reading doesn’t know that by now, I am female). Also, in high school, when kids may still be sorting out what they were, one doesn’t have to be gay to be accused of being gay and treated as if one were.

Mr. Visible’s got it right. Work small scale, working with kids where they are. If you picture freaked out parents when you say you want to talk to them about homosexuality (and I do, too), take a different tactic. Get involved with youth some other way, whether it’s teaching Sunday school or coaching a team and, when you hear the term “gay” used as an insult, or anything similar, point out to the kids why it’s wrong. Agentfroot and I met when I was her Sunday School teacher. I don’t know how she did expect me to react when she told me she was Wiccan, but I’d be willing to bet she didn’t expect me to say, in effect, “OK, why are you Wiccan?” and, when I approved of her answers, introduce her to other, practicing Wiccans. She’s a stubbborn kid. Telling her she had to stop being Wiccan and immediately go back to being a Christian would have worked about as well as telling Matt he had to become a heterosexual. I’ve worked with other kids at that church (for the record, the rest of them are still Christian, as far as I know), and gotten them to see the effects of bullying, including the more subtle form girls indulge in. It’s a small start – less than a dozen kids, but it’s still a start.

CJ

264

Aaargh! And after all that, I made a mess of the coding for the cite. Let’s try this again:
Cite!

(After preview)
There, that looks better!

CJ:o

265

FTR, I wasn’t conflating orientation and act; just saying that winning “tolerance” for our orientation without winning the same for the sex we have won’t do us a whole heap of good.

266

Close enough for my point.

OK, so now we have had a couple of posts denying that it is possible to love the sinner but hate the sin. I think it can be shown that this is, in fact, perfectly possible.

I would hope no one is claiming that violence against gays by fundamentalists is universal. The only avowed fundamentalist on this thread has already stated, several times, that she believes violence against gays is wrong.

Similarly, most fundamentalists equally oppose abortion. Violence against abortion clinics is, however, not a universal feature of all anti-abortion protest.

So if fundamentalists can oppose abortion, generally without violence, why is it so hard to believe that they could oppose homosexual activity without committing violence against gays?

And isn’t that the standard to which we seem to have agreed on? Violence against others is wrong. The fundamentalists have agreed, gays and their supporters certainly agree, and isn’t that a neutral standard that violates nobody’s rights?

You think gay sex is fine? Go ahead and teach your children so - as long as you don’t teach them that rape is OK.

You think gay sex is sinful? Go ahead and teach your children so - as long as you don’t teach them that gay-bashing is OK.

And what is the position of the schools and the state? That violence is wrong - in complete accord with those parts of the teachings of both groups that affect anyone else.

Or are we arguing, as I keep asking, that gay teens need something more than that?

A fair question. What help do you think they need, who should deliver it, and what form should it take? And how will the help delivered to gay teens differ from the help delivered to teens who are suicidal for other reasons?

Regards,
Shodan

267

I can’t help but think that having schools enforce stricter policies is doing very little to fix the problem. There has to have already been an incident that happened for the policy to be implemented. By then, the damage has already been done. Besides, what about all of the bullying that occurs in places other than the school. If a kid knows they will get into trouble for doing something at school, what is to stop them from waiting until they see the victim at a mall on a weekend?

The education needs to start at home. And if it starts with “Hate the sin, love the sinner”, then the underlying message is that someone who is homosexual is bad. I mean, are kids really always able to comprehend the concept of “Hate the sin, love the sinner” or do they only really hear “If you are a homosexual, you don’t deserve any respect”. If a kid can tell that their parents have a demeaning attitude towards gays, it’s only natural that they would have the same attitude. Doesn’t the bible teach that the most important thing is love? Why isn’t that message stressed a little more, as in, if you treat someone badly, it doesn’t really matter what the reason is. It is still something you will have to answer for. Isn’t having hatred in your heart a little more damning than being a homosexual?

I also can’t help but wonder this. How many bullies are kids who may have conflicts about what their sexual preference is. Yet, rather than have some resources to help them, they simply get the message that what they are is bad. Then they see a kid who is gay and feel a need to lash out, perhaps so nobody will think that they are homosexual.

Lastly, why do people feel they need to be assistants to God? If a person is gay, isn’t that between them and God. Isn’t it a bit presumptuous to assume that God couldn’t handle this on his/her own without having a bunch of little helpers. I can’t imagine that if one of these “helpers” tells a gay kid that he is bad, and that kid commits suicide, that God would be at all pleased with that bit of help.

Hopefully something in here made some sense.

268

Love those Christians, but really hate that nasty, wicked, evil Christianity.

:rolleyes:

Esprix

269

Shodan: First, I agreed with you on the possibility of “love sinner/hate sin” thing and even furnished a real-life example in someone known to many of us.

Second, if you want to conduct that “fundamentalists don’t hate gays” campaign, open a new thread. This one is for talking about the problems faced by gay teens, and what we can do about it. I’m as guilty of anyone of the hijacks it’s suffered, since I’m more than willing to discuss any aspect of the questions so far raised. But d’ya think maybe we can possibly keep it, if not on track, at least lurching from side to side in the general direction of what I quoted in the OP?

270

Shodan, there’s a difference between hatred and physical violence. Just because a fundamentalist, a school principal, or a teenager won’t necessarily beat the shit out of me doesn’t mean he or she won’t necessarily do their worst short of that to make my life hell.

I’m not interested in pandering to the position that freedom of consensual sexual choice isn’t a human right and that the gender of my partner makes my sex life a sin. It’s not a humane position; when brought to bear on a child, it’s child abuse, and it’s not something I’m interested in accounting for in the school system just because some people lack enough spine to defend the children under their care from those who wish to batter their psyches into submission.

271

I was aware that I was gay even as a very young teenager. I didn’t have a name for it yet, didn’t know that there were other people in the world like me (this was the 1960s) and didn’t realize that there was anything that gay people “did” with one another. It wasn’t about sex. It was about feelings. I knew I was different. And I was terrified that someone would figure out that secret part of my difference.

Apparently, it was plain to many of my peers how I was different, at least on the surface. I didn’t like sports. I liked classical music. I crossed my legs when I sat down.

I started getting called names that I had never heard used in my family. I didn’t tell my family. I was deeply ashamed. And I began to understand that there was some connection between why I was being razzed and these intense, private feelings I was having.

I’ve told the following anecdote on other boards before, but I think it appropriate here:

In 7th grade, I was sitting in class, innocently, when the kid at the desk in front of me suddenly turned around, muttered “dirty Jew” to me, and stuck my hand with his pencil. I was sent to the school nurse.

When my parents found out what had happened, they rushed to the school, met with the principal and had a long discussion in my presence about what had happened. The kid was suspended. He was lectured about violence, about picking on kids. And about anti-semitism. At no point did I feel that I was at fault for being Jewish. And I had the love and support of my parents --and the visible support of the principal to boot.

What my parents didn’t know was that I had been beaten up a number of times before that. And called “fagg*t” and other anti-gay epithets. And I never told them.

I couldn’t. In my mind, it would have meant coming out to them. And I knew I couldn’t. I lived in terror that they would find out and that they would disown me. I spent years cowering with the certain knowledge that my life would end if anyone, especially those whom I care for the most, found out my secret.

Somehow, I had gotten the message that what I was --who I was-- was beyond the pale. And this without ever having met another gay person.

The message that this gay youth get was loud and clear and unmistakable. My heart hurt much more than my hand. And my hand had healed long before my heart did.

I know that many other gay youth have gone through similar experiences. Once I came out, I started to compare notes with other gay people. What I discovered was that we shared a lot more than the fact that we were all attracted to (some) others of the same sex. We shared the burden of growing up in a society that did its best to stigmatize us, rather successfully, I must add.

Personally, I believe the “sin versus sinner” dichotomy is a distractor. As a gay teenager, I wasn’t having sex. I would, however, wake up in the morning and, frankly, realize who I had been dreaming of. The line between feelings and activity is a lot vaguer than the dichotomy would have us understand.

The bottom line for me is that the best way to handle anti-gay bullying is to create a society where gay youth don’t have to hide who they are. And where they can be assured that they will be loved and accepted for who they really are.

That may sound a little too abstract or even pie-in-the-sky to be useful, but to tell you the truth, I have every hope that we are headed in that direction.secret

272

And that, my friends, is why I could not fucking believe the amount of controversy that was generated the other year about the whole “safe space” thing.

I’m tired of worrying over whether such and such might possibly be seen to be promoting homosexuality, or unfairly privileging gay kids (whose lives, let’s face it, are unmitigated traipses down golden paths bestrewn with violets) or some such nonsense. Those are my brothers and sisters, and they are suffering and dying from the squeamishness and cowardice of others. All of this hiding and mincing about makes me sick. They’re not exemplars of the degradation of society. They’re not troublemakers, they’re not vile sinners, they’re young men and women. And people in positions of power would rather let them fall, let them die, to avoid going to the bother of having to think about them.

Enough of this. Let’s bring in the gay theatre troupes to the schools. Let’s put safe-space stickers on the doors. Let’s put gay books into the libraries. Let’s take www.youth-guard.org out of cyber-blockers in the library. Let’s put up posters with the address of gay support groups. Let’s implement the non-harassment policies. Let’s get the administration out of the way of those brave kids who want to start GSA’s; hell, let’s get the administration starting them.

And those who don’t like it can shut their pie hole, because I don’t want to hear about it. It saves lives. It saved my life. Get out of my fucking way.

273

Oh - and welcome to a fellow gay linguist :slight_smile:

274

Let me echo matt’s welcome, linguist – though, of course, as gay males, neither of you would qualify as a cunning linguist! :wink:

While I agree in principle with what matt said about moving forward with programs the schools, let me note something **Mr Visible/b] said up above, and ask for feedback:

The most obvious thing that occurs to me is community centers. Almost any community of any size has something for public use, with meeting rooms, sometimes offices, and they’re held open to public groups for their use. Larger cities have specifically gay centers – which could very easily put youth-support programs in place.

The Internet itself is a source – there are a whole bunch of boards founded as teen-support programs, most of which have closed for lack of support. See the Ninjachick thread for a link to the program Andygirl has been involved with (where is she these days, anyway?).

I think most communities would have people likely to support Scouting For All – what they need are adults willing to lead such groups. IIRC, the BSA problem does not obtain in Girl Scouts.

One of the things I’ve noted about stereotypes is that they are untrue as generalizations, but do speak to a real perception. Do a significant number of gay teens tend to be computer nerds, interested in art or music, avid readers with interests in particular sorts of books, etc.? How about groups that are not gay-specific except in the largest cities but GSA-style inclusive-but-gay-affirming for kids with these interests, mentored by adults with similar interests.

There’s some non-school ideas. Have they sparked anybody’s enthusiasm to get one of those started? Anybody got more ideas along these lines?

275

Thanks, Matt.

I’ve been very impressed with the quality of the posts on this board.

276

linguist,

Just wanted to chime in and say welcome to the boards! And thank you for sharing your story.

277

Poly, while it’s a few years away yet from being as strong as we’d like it to be, there’s a decently strong movement of youth/young adults who feel called (through whatever means) to a life of teaching kids. I’m looking at minimum of 30+ years doing just that. And they’re modern thinkers, many of the ones I’ve met. For many of them, either sexuality isn’t something that concerns them (viz the “gay=bad attitude”) or they recognize that while it wasn’t a struggle for them, it can be for others. And they’re preparing to deal with that.

For now, being the only non-het person I know of and have somewhat regular contact with, it’s not all that easy to start anything down here. There’s no resource I’ve yet seen for non-het people down here. No Pride Alliance (southern VA), no alphabet soup room, as andygirl called it, no pamphlets of any sort. I’m currently trying to figure out a way to approach the powers that be in this place to figure out why this is so.

Not much, but something.

278

Poly,

I’ve been spoiled by the number and quality of the Queer support groups in my city. I can’t overemphasize how important Project 10 was to coming out, for me. I met my dear friend Hamish there, not to mention most of the rest of the people who were friends to me during that difficult time.

The best part about those groups is that they radiate. I can think of four Queer groups off the top of my head that were or are run by “graduates” of Project 10. And I just phoned them tonight and reminded them that I was still available to volunteer for education events at schools :wink:

There’s also the gay groups at higher educational institutions. McGill has four discussion groups for Queer people; even my small private cégep (pre-university college) had one, which I ran in my second year. The one in the public cégep down the way had one too, a big and successful one, and I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that high school students are attending it.

Finally, the Internet was indeed another invaluable source of information and support for me. Let me plug once more http://www.youth-guard.org (where our own Andygirl volunteers, incidentally) as a great and essential service. Especially for kids who don’t have enough access or enough nerve to attend a gay group, the Internet through its omnipresence and anonymity can provide a way to find support that feels safe to the teen. I know in the gay-youth sites I frequent or have frequented, there was a profusion of kids from tiny towns where they couldn’t expect to find anything in the community for them.

A gay kid who feels isolated will grab at any opportunity to connect and get support. My heart broke reading a letter to XY magazine to the effect, “Please excuse my handwriting. I’m writing this at 3 a.m. under the covers because that’s the only time I get any privacy.” In a small community, I imagine even being visible and “out” as a person who promotes diversity and teaches acceptance can help. Whether you are a city councillor, small businessperson, church member, librarian, or just mater familias, you could turn into the Queer-youth equivalent of a Block Parent. Just a thought.

279

Go up, thou bald maker of puns!
(is mauled by bears)

280

**

What is a gay theater troupe? Uh, besides a troupe made up of homosexuals.

**

That all sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Marc