reading this thread has been quite, well affecting for me.
although i’ve always been attracted to both men and women, i’ve never thought of myself as bisexual.
which is sort of weird, if you think about it.
basically, although i’ve had a girlfriend and been with women (which was never a big deal to me), the fact that i prefer guys has always made me lairy of “claiming” the label for myself, if that makes sense.
especially now that i’m with a man who i hope to settle down with and spend the rest of my life with, it seems even stranger for me to say i’m bisexual.
in a way it would feel that i was making light of the issues that affect “real” LGBT people.
i’m starting to change my opinions.
so, if reading this thread can give me some insight, imagine what a real life person, talking face to face with someone could do.
BTW if i AM annoying any of the LGBT dopers with this, could you let me know?
but nicely?
Well, but here’s the thing: do you consider sexuality to include desires? I do, which is part of the reason I still consider my engaged-to-a-woman self to be bisexual. I haven’t stopped wanting male-male action (fiancee doesn’t mind it one bit;)), but for now it’s not happening.
So, you’ve settled into a hetero relationship. Doesn’t change how you feel, does it? (Just makes it easier when your Sig O says, “hey, look at that cute blonde” to agree or disagree with him. ;))
The most obvious thing that occurs to me is community centers. Almost any community of any size has something for public use, with meeting rooms, sometimes offices, and they’re held open to public groups for their use. Larger cities have specifically gay centers – which could very easily put youth-support programs in place.
Wicked busy; I’m taking a full courseload this quarter, all of which count towards my linguistics major. Also trying to juggle work, something like a social life, and plugging away at my next play. I’m chained to my books more than I’d care to admit.
Anyway, re: the thread. As I get progressively older, my gay youth activism gets more and more flack. I’ve gotten numerous warnings that I need to be extremely careful that everything I do seems completely innocent, and even then I might get accused of lewd actions with minors. (I’m twenty, by the way.)
Example being my friendship with BadAndi, who is 14. She’s from my hometown, came out of the closet at about the same age I did, goes to the same schools I did… I basically serve as her mentor. I’ve lost track of the number of times that I’ve been warned about how someone might think something and make an accusation against me. It gets to your head now and again. And to be perfectly honest, I’d stay the hell away from her if her parents didn’t welcome my role in her life. I’ve been involved in youth groups where the leaders have been accused of pedophelia, btw- angry parents will often accuse group leaders of corrupting their children. So yes, I do worry about it. But I believe in my work.
If I’d had a gay adult that I could look to as a role model in my early teens I think my life would have been very different. I was bulimic and suicidal in that time due to being ostracized for my sexuality and I was convinced that I was utterly alone. I made it out of that point in my life. Many do not.
Ouch…what if they turn out to be exclusively gay? Or do you think everyone is bi by nature and the decision as to which sexual urges to act on is determined by moral guidance.
Sure. Parents teach their kids all sorts of crap. As long as you’re not averse to them being exposed to other perspectives on the issue.
Nah.
So, Crafter_Man, say your eldest daughter, now 14, comes home with a permission slip for a special unit in homosexuality in her sex education class. She tells you she’d like to go. Would you sign it?
Would you protest the fact that the school offers this unit to its students?
What if she took the unit without your permission having been sought?
I’m really not interested in debating our decision; you’re not going to change my mind and I’m not going to change yours. I simply want to know if anyone would support a law making it a crime for us to teach this to our children. That’s all.
No, nor would I support a law making it a crime for you to teach your children that evolution is wrong. Since I do believe firmly in the separation of church and state, what you teach your children is right and wrong is none of the state’s business, and yes, that does include teachings such as stealing and murder are right.
I would like to know if you’re singling out homosexuality as immoral, or if you’re also teaching about other, more common and more provable (in Christian terms) sins such as adultery, divorce, envy, and hate. Personally, it seems to me programs such as Who Wants To Marry a Millionaire and Married By America do far more damage to the sanctity of marriage than legalizing marriage between homosexuals, but I appear to be in the minority here.
Crafter Man, a question which is not a nitpick but may seem at first to be like one. What is sinful and immoral? The American Heritage gives these definitions for the word “homosexuality”:
[ol][li]Sexual orientation to persons of the same sex. [/li][li]Sexual activity with another of the same sex. [/ol] Princeton University’s “Word” service defines it as: “a sexual attraction to (or sexual relations with) persons of the same sex.” The Department of Medical Oncology of the University of Newcastle Upon Tyne says it’s “Sexuality directed toward someone of the same sex.” Webster’s Third New International Dictionary gives these definitions:[/li][ol][li] atypical sexuality characterized by manifestation of sexual desire toward a member of one’s own sex[/li][li]erotic activity with a member of one’s own sex[/li][li]a stage in normal sexual development occurring during prepuberty in the male and during early adolescence in the female during which libidinal gratification is sought with members of one’s own sex[/li][li]the extent to which one’s own libido is fixated at a homoerotic level[/ol][/li]Which of these are wrong and sinful? If all of them, why? I can respect your apparent sense that God condemns it (you didn’t say, but “sinful” implies divine judgment in my mind). How does this apply to the very well documented circumstance that gay people don’t appear to choose their orientation?
It’s not a set of wise-acre nitpicks; I’m seriously interested in seeing what your thinking is.
I would not support such a law, myself, but let me ask you the reverse question – would you support a law that made it illegal for gay people to live out their lives as they choose? Why or why not?
I’m not sure about supporting a law…I would compare it teaching a kid that being plump is sinful before finding out whether the kid is a natural endomorph or not. You’d hope that a kid will see through it, but there’s always that faction that will grow up with a very skewed sense of self worth. I don’t know if or how emotional abuse can be objectively measured in order to enforce a law against it.
Of course not. I could care less what mutually-consenting adults do behind closed doors.
Again, I’m really not interested in a tedious debate concerning our views on homosexuality; been there done that. You can call me abusive, unenlightened, homophobic, unfair, bigoted, evil, scum-of-the-earth - I don’t care. I only want to know if anyone desires to make it illegal for someone to teach their children that homosexuality is wrong, sinful, and immoral. That’s all.
I’ll tell you what though, I do know a lot of fundamentalist Christians who believe that there is a Grand Conspiracy out there with intentions to outlaw all kinds of Christian-moral-instruction.
I’ve never actually seen that conspiracy though, outside of the fertile imaginations of those Christians.
Now, on the other hand, there is no end to the lobbying by the Christian right to outlaw any number of practices they consider wrong
No, it shouldn’t be illegal. It’s never been illegal to hate anyone or teach someone to hate, only to act upon that hate in a violent way. A law isn’t going to stop people from hating anyway. But there should definitely be laws in place so that you or your children cannot discriminate against or deny rights to anyone because they are gay.
>I only want to know if anyone desires to make it illegal for someone to teach their children that homosexuality is wrong, sinful, and immoral. That?s all.<
No amount of squealing hissy fits will ever stop parents from passing on their own morals and values to their children, regardless of what passes for political correctness.
Apologize for the brazen hijack, MrVisible; I was just curious where the PC crowd stood on converting their beliefs into force. If no one believes there should be a law preventing me from teaching to my children the sinfulness of homosexuality, then I’ll go on my merrily way.
“PC crowd”? I do believe some of us use Macs, though myself I have a Gateway PC. But while I cannot speak for anyone else here, I suspect strongly that most of the gay people feel that they’re fighting for their rights to live out their own lives as they see fit against a Religious Right-based movement to regulate what they may and may not do, etc., and those of us who stand by them believe that they do indeed have those rights – just as you have the right to teach your children as you will. As for me, it’s my sworn Christian duty, as I’ve mentioned a number of times in different threads, to “seek and serve Christ in all persons, loving [my] neighbor as [my]self,” and to “strive for justice and peace among all people, and respect the dignity of every human being.”
I appreciate your answering my direct question courteously – and I want to point out that I did raise a previous question – precisely what are you going to teach the kids. If it’s that your beliefs include that homosexual acts are sinful, that’s one thing; if it’s that there is something evil in their sexuality that causes them to fall in love with other men/women, that’s quite another. If, for example, they are in a playground with other kids who are taunting a kid as being “a faggot” or “gay,” what would you say that their response ought to be? And why should they do that?
I personally welcome the hijack, because you are obviously a gentle-spoken person with anti-homosexual beliefs, and if what gets suggested here seems workable to you and not a step contrary to your beliefs, it’s something that we who advocate decent treatment for gay people can count on widespread public acceptance of. So if you’ll accept the role, stick around as a devil’s advocate, and say what in your views is right or wrong with what gets suggested.
Adding my $.02 in here…I would not support any law telling people what to teach their children. People who believe homosexuality is immoral have the right to teach those beliefs to their children (understanding the problems this may cause should their children turn out to be gay). Similarly I believe homosexuals should be able to pass on their families (whether that is children or parents) that they are not sinful or immoral.
Personally I feel there is nothing sinful or immoral in regards to homosexuality. However, I do understand how people are offended when homosexuality becomes a centerpiece of academic inquiry (other than studies devoted specifically to gay and lesbian studies). Similarly I do not think that schools should teach that homosexuality is bad or wrong. These are value judgements and don’t belong in academic inquiry. Yes I know many of you probably had teachers who added in their values all over the place in science or literature…my feeling is that this should be limited. Opinions that are “on-topic”…such as why NASA needs more funding in an astronomy class make sense…launching into a 2-week discussion of how Di Vinci was gay seems rather “off-topic” to me…so too would a discussion of why we should ignore Di Vinci because he was gay. Values should be decided upon by the family.
