I saw what you did there. And so did Lola.
More than that: That the (bodily) male transsexual has a brain which is more like that of a female than like that of a male. First, one has to establish the difference between “normal” male and female brains in the first place: If there isn’t that baseline difference, then it would be true but irrelevant to say that a bodily-male transsexual has a brain identical to a female brain, since so would all of the other males.
You’re missing my point that the argument isn’t valid - I’m not arguing it to prove a point, I’m arguing it to prove how ridiculous it is.
The word “eunuch” exists because society recognizes that a man lacking a penis and testicles is still a man. This negates the argument that it’s having such appendages that define what a man is.
Yes - it may help psychologically! THAT IS THE POINT OF THE TREATMENT!
Are transsexuals normal? No, they’re not - it’s not normal to think you’re the opposite sex of your genitals. That’s a problem. The question is what do we do about it. Ignore it? That seems to cause problems in the long term. Can we change people so their brains/mind/whatever matches their genitals? No? Well, then, can we change their bodies to match their brains/mind/whatever? Well… sort of…
It’s not like someone just walks into a clinic with a stack of money and says “rearrange my genitals”. A period of counseling and reversible, or at least semi-reversible changes (hormone therapy, dressing as the new gender, etc.) must be gone through, and it’s typically years long, before the person in question has irrevocable surgery. The purpose of all that is to weed out people who don’t really need SRS, or shouldn’t get it for various other reasons. It’s not like getting a tattoo where you can walk in and make a permanent change on whim. There are a lot of hoops to jump through first.
From the other thread…
This is absolutely untrue. Males and females have differing skeletal structures on average, where males are usually larger with greater bone density. That is average, though, not destiny. Also, are you aware that if an FTM starts testosterone before they’re finished growing they will grow essentially to the height they would have been had they been born male? In addition, FTMs of any age will find their bone density increasing after beginning hormone therapy.
I know this is low hanging fruit, but it’s a good example of a common misconception about transsexuals and mental illness in general. Transsexuals, absent other issues, are not delusional. They are very much aware of the physical reality of their situation. They simply wish to alter that reality to the extent possible with current medical technology. A man who wishes to be a woman is no more delusional than a brunette who wants to be a blond. One could argue that wanting to be another gender is, itself, a form of mental illness, but it would not be a delusion by any reasonable definition of the term.
Also, as a pro-tip: try to avoid comedy. It’s clearly not your forte.
We aren’t just talking about “contested theories”; we are talking about differences to the brain. Nor is this all that hard to find out; a few seconds googling gets me this (PDF):
That’s cute, but I was actually (and in all probability, very badly) stating that gender (or self-identified gender) didn’t much matter. The difference between a “bitch” and “nonbitch” is attitude, not physical plumbing. I’ve met numerous man-bitches and numerous woman-nonbitches. The former annoy me, the latter I respect.
As a minor note, I’m currently taking (well, I’m a few days from the final exam of - which I should be studying for) a basic biology course that touches on material relevant to this discussion. During embryonic development, numerous genetic and hormonal processes have to happen in a very specific order to generate what many perceive as the “normal” phenotype (i.e. heterosexual, with inclinations matching anatomy). It’s not surprising to me at all that this sequence can take slightly different paths, given its complexity.
So, frankly, fuck all this crap about what a person “really” is. It’s not like there’s some kind of perfect template or cosmic scorekeeper or galactic senate committee voting up or down.
There are more than two genders, period. Anyone who believes otherwise is seriously misguided. How many people suffer silently while trying to fit into one of the two opposing pigeonholes that our society calls “genders”? Since it’s taboo to even question the binary gender system, let alone live outside of it for whatever reason, more than we can ever know. People’s general ignorance really shows when transsexuality is up for debate.
Also, this -
Huh? Why not? Ever question that, those people who are laughing, making fun, and/or insisting that only pussy-possessors can (or should) be women?
I think the proper thought experiment would be: what if you had a vagina, but the same brain. You would probably find it to be somehow foreign to the rest of your body.
More generally, I would say that it’s probably harder for a person of the unmarked gender (male) to notice gender identity. For example, I’m white, so it’s pretty easy for me to “not notice” race. I am told that this is much harder for racial minorities.
Doesn’t that sound exactly like body dysmorphic disorder?
And doesn’t it seem like that group tends to be VERY obessed with recreating a strict stereotypical gender role? (ie fancy dresses, long fingernails…the type of person who is a 20/30 something Fifth Ave shopper who watches Sex and the City and drinks cosmos and loves expensive shoes
Not at all…I think it’s a bit easier for a chick to be genderqueer, since its socially acceptable for us to be tomboyish etc. Matter of fact, it was harder for me to come to terms with the fact that I’m hard of hearing!
Heh, reminds me of my favourite aspect of the much-derided film But I’m a Cheerleader about an Exodus-like camp for would-be-ex-gays. One girl was very tough, loved softball, had a buzz-cut, etc… and was actually straight. she’d been sent there not for lesbianism, but for nonconformity which I gather to her parents were the same thing.
You probably do, you just never felt the need to question it.
What you’re saying about sexuality is actually a very good analogy. I’ve heard that men feel very positively about their penises; they love having one and would be very sad to lose them. MtF transsexuals have the opposite feeling - most loathe their penises and would rather have a vagina. This isn’t limited to genitalia, though; it applies to all the primary and secondary sex characteristics, outward gender presentation, and so on. So just as a homosexual man has the same kind of feelings for men that you have for women, an MtF person has the same kinds of feelings about having a vagina that (I assume) you have about having a penis. I hope that clarifies it. 
The techniques for SRS that existed in 1979 were abysmal compared to the ones that exist today. It would surprise me also if psychologists haven’t gotten much better at identifying who should transition. We can’t take scant evidence from 30 years ago and use it to draw conclusions about something that has advanced so much in that amount of time. I think new research needs to be done with up to date case studies; if there needs to be a control group, there are many folks out there unfortunate enough to not be able to transition whether because of finances, family, careers, etc.
Agreed. Most, if not all*, cultures teach their children that what gender you are is determined entirely by what you’re born with, and for the vast majority there is no conflict between anatomy and identity. So it’s easy for people without the discrepancy to believe that such discrepancy either doesn’t exist or is irrelevant, and I am seeing a lot of that sentiment being expressed in this thread. It’s little more than adhering to the status quo because it’s convenient.
However I want to point out that I didn’t have genderqueer, androgyne, or bi-gendered people in mind when I started this thread. I’m talking about fully transsexual individuals, most of which in my experience have no problem with fitting into the gender binary - they just want to be on the opposite side of it.
*(Some cultures do make limited, incomplete exceptions; the Hijra caste and Two-Spirits are examples that come to mind.)
You don’t know a mdan thing about what I believe, do, or perputuate, because you, like most of those who agree with you, seem to be incapable fo comprehending the issues outside fo your narrow frame of awareness. ironic, for someone who condemns others based on that. Who said anything about gender? I didn’t. I’m talking about sex. And I really don’t give a damn about “gender”.
You insist on seeing everything I say through your own society-created lens and refuse to do for me the very thjing you clainm I am not doing for them: seeing what I am saying! Pathetic.
It harms everyone. It is a lie. I principally treat people based on the human being, not on what they think they are.
Let me give you an example. What fi you see someone who insist they are really a wolf or a god. Are you really, honestly going to claim that they would be better off if we treated them as such? If we locked up or put down the one and bowed down to worship the other? (If so, get bowing and hand over all your worldly posessions to my high priests).
Human are humans. They come in two basic varieties and that’s about it.
More to the point, what you want is not logically consistent, just another lie and madness you perpetuate to make yourselves feel good about how “nice” you are. And it is all bogus. There is no such thing as a “man trapped ion a woman’s body.” There are simply men and women. How they feel about thatb fact is not relevant, period. They either leanr to liove with it or not, but I am not going to pretend they are really changing to the other when they are not.
IN fact,m let’s look at your little game: you claim fundamentally that it all simply relevant to how we feel. However, feelings are not logically true and in fact can be essentially anything at any time in any way.The upshot is the destruction of the concept of sex. However, if we destroy the concept of sex, we also destroy the very concept you are trying to promote; i.e., that one can feel or decide (regardless of psychological motivations good or bad) to be the other.
Either there is no such thing as sex and therefore even the concept shoudl not exist. You may argue that we shouldn’t take note of sexual differences at all, but we do and every human group does and always has. I deal in what is real and what is true, not in what people feel like.
Since you seem to have trouble with significant concepts, I’ll try to use small words.
Really short version: Lying bad, self-deception worse.
I do not have the power to force other people to be honest with themselves, but I refuse to help them in their self-deception. They are not female, and I will not treat them as such. Granted, the impact of this decision is relatively limited since I don’t make any significant distinction. I do not really care about :gender" and ignore the concept as a hazy idea largely created in the unconscious and attacked by people with equally hazy reasons for disliking it.
For mroe specific harm, lies always and everywhere weaken our wills and ability to see and act with clarity. However, I am not particularly concerned with their good and harm, but rather my own, and those of other people around me. I am not about to deceive myself either.
You may be shocked tyo find I have more compassion than you can probably imagine for people with serious problems of this sort. I can empathize to a degree you can scarcely conceive precisely because I have great powers of imagination. I also know what it is to be confused and outcast, and I know people with a lot of serious emotional problems (including some genuine illnesses) My compassion simply does not extend to delusion, nor deliberately created lies in my mind so I can encourage someone else’s lies. Reality is what it is, and pretending does not change it.
Jesus christ, man. For somebody who claims such tremendous faculties of compassion and empathy, you’re really being a jerk to somebody who doesn’t deserve it.
Moreover, and I’m going to be blunt because you’ve demonstrated that it’s warranted, you are way out of your depths and rapidly getting bent out of shape as a result of it. You’re getting viscerally upset to the point of incoherence at the idea that you’re being “misunderstood,” and then your attempt to clarify the matter just cements even further that the characterization you’re objecting to was right the fuck on. It’s not worth talking about, because let’s be honest, you don’t give a shit about what anybody else is actually trying to say. It’s clear that you’ve never given this any serious thought, that you don’t actually understand the parameters of the discussion, and that most importantly, you refuse to think about it, much less understand it.
On the plus side, you’re being unnecessarily vicious about it, so good for you. Way to avoid any further speculation about what it is you believe and why you’re so obviously invested in aggressively ignoring an alternative perspective.
Something I was just thinking about on the subject of what makes a person a woman or a man. Transsexuals often talk among themselves asking this very same question, and asking what it means to be a woman/man, and invariably the conclusion, based on hard facts and evidence, is that there is no one characteristic or set of characteristics. You pretty much just know. Sure, this sounds unscientific, but what happens is the person’s sense of self is confirmed in just about every aspect of their life. So from their point of view, their self perception can’t possibly be wrong.
But it’s already been pointed out that there is no self deception going on. Trans people are fully aware of their bodily configuration. Consider one who says, “I know I have these male parts but I feel like I shouldn’t. I try to act male so I can fit in with the guys but my instinct is to move in a feminine way and to interpret what people say in the way most women do. All my life I’ve tried to be like the male role models in my life but I’ve never understood them and I simply don’t think the way they do. I try to have sex as a male with my girlfriend but I really would be much more comfortable if our situations were reversed. I find I enjoy the kinds of stimulation that women usually prefer, and feel disgusted when reminded of my anatomy. I don’t feel right calling myself a man; I only do it because I’m supposed to.” Now you’re telling me that when this person claims to be a woman trapped in a male body, they are deceiving themself? Especially in light of the evidence that their brain really is more like a normal female brain than a male one?
Also, it was mentioned in this thread the topic of redefining words. I looked up the word “woman” in Webster’s Second Edition and the gist was “adult person of the female sex”. “Female” is defined as the sex which conceives and bears children; “sex” is defined as the total group of characteristics that make a person male or female. By this definition, a partially or fully transitioned person doesn’t quite qualify as either a woman or a man. However, this same dictionary defines the act of sex as occurring between male and female individuals; since we all know that homosexuals have sex too, it follows that some words do need to be redefined. So certainly it’s not unreasonable to consider expanding the definition of “woman” to include “adult person who, after much introspection and careful examination of their own life, behaviors, instincts, thought patterns, and feelings, concludes that their identity is actually female regardless of their physical sex.”
This is a general reminder to everyone: attack the arguments, but not the posters making them.
I don’t understand how the third sentence relates to the preceding two. Nor, for that matter, do I understand what the third sentence means.
Well, no, but then, women are neither wolves nor gods, so the comparison doesn’t really make much sense. Someone who says they want to be treated like a woman is just asking to be treated the same way 50% of the people on this planet are treated. That’s pretty easy to figure out. A guy wants to be treated like a wolf - well, wolves don’t really have a place in our society, so I don’t know what he would mean by that.
I guess the guy who says he’s a god is easy enough to deal with. I’d just treat him like I treat every other god in our society: by mostly ignoring him.
I find that a rather tragically limited view on the human condition.
Okay, but how does that make my position logically inconsistent?
I’m not sure exactly how you get to your conclusion from your premises, here, but you’re entirely incorrect. I’m arguing that sex is more fluid than your rigid binary structure allows. That does not “destroy the concept of sex,” any more than running water destroys the concept of ice. Things can exist in multiple states across the span of their existence, without annihilating themselves.
You seem to have left out an “or” here.
I’ve never argued that.
I do not feel that you have adequately demonstrated that. Your position here seems more derived from emotional investment than logic or empirical observation.
Lovely, but it does not answer the question you were asked.
Does it also sap our precious bodily fluids?
“Weaken our wills” is not a specific harm, it’s a meaningless platitude. What specific harm will be caused by referring to a transsexual with their preferred pronoun? Will they fall down a well? Get struck by lightning? Forget to tape Dancing with the Stars? Stub their toe?
This seems at odds with the contents of your final paragraph.
There’s a difference between humoring someone else, and deceiving yourself.
In what ways does this compassion manifest itself?
Many people have pointed out that there is a difference between sex (biological gender, assuming that one’s gender is unambiguous and not intersexed), and gender identity. But there is also a distinction between gender identity and gender expression. Gender identity is how one identifies one’s own gender (traditionally male or female), and gender expression is how one performs or expresses that gender (a common female gender performance would be buying expensive shoes, wearing lipstick, etc). Transgendered people tend to unilaterally agree with this traditional binary. I have a friend who transitioned from female to male, and views transgendered people who have not transitioned “all the way” (ie; sex reassignment surgery, cosmetic surgeries, etc). with suspicion and even disdain; his idea, I guess, is that gender identity/expression/biology logically correspond so people who don’t attempt to make their biological sex and gender expression correspond to their gender identity are weird/depraved or don’t really understand what it means to be a woman or man. This kind of attitude causes tension between the gender queer community and the transgendered community as well. The gender queer generally believe that one’s gender, gender expression, and sex can be all over the place and the binary is completely irrelevant (ie; a gender queer person may be biologically female, identify as butch, and present themselves as either male or female depending on how they feel that particular day. Or they may refuse any classification at all and even forgo personal pronouns entirely). I think there is growing acceptance among the fully transitioned transgendered community for different kinds of gender experiences and constructions and an end to this kind of “I’m a woman/man now end stop” and more “I identify as male/female, but lived for several decades as the opposite gender and with the responsibilities/priviliges of that gender so my gender experience is complex and varied”. The impression I get from this board is that a lot of people kind of lump transgenderism/intersexism/androgyny/gender queerness all together as just expressions of dissatisfaction with the gender binary, but there are tremendous differences between these communities and their acceptance or not of conventional gender/sex constructions.
Interesting board here and the comments reveal a wide variety of opinions:
:shrugs:
There’s no evidence that homeopathy cures cancer, but we can’t be sure it doesn’t.
That isn’t how medicine works.
Really? How many transsexuals have undergone brain transplants?
Regards,
Shodan
Of course we can be sure; homeopathy can’t do anything by its nature. It’s just water.
We’ve already come as close as is presently practical with surgery and hormone therapy. Changing the body the brain is in is essential the same as transferring the brain to a new one. And the result is that they are happier and live longer.