I can’t speak to bridge, but men dominate high-level chess. I also can’t speak to why this is true, but it does seem to be true. For example, the highest-rated female player at the moment has an Elo rating of 2654; this is good for #96 for all active players.
Because you aren’t even trying to understand the opposing view. Ski-cross had been an accepted sport in the International Ski Federation since 2004. And people petition the Olympics for inclusion constantly.
It’s sexual discrimination almost by definition. Doesn’t mean it’s unreasonable to do so for a sports based entertainment event.
I don’t know at this point if you are open to facts, but in case that last post was too involved.
http://www.wsjusa.com/olympic-inclusion/
And common sentiment, documented here.
Despite your deflection by attacking my character, what facts did your post even provide?
It appears you were opining and not offering facts.
If I am in error please provide a cite as an ad hominem attacks will never change my position.
From Rick Jay’s post
[ul]
[li]The International Ski Federation’s (FIS) is the world’s highest governing body for international winter sports.[/li][li]The IOC ignored FIS’s overwhelming recommendation that a women’s ski jumping event be added.[/li][li]This was a women’s event with large amounts of international participation at an elite level.[/li][/ul]
I provided cites there, can you provide cites or can you only offer opinion that doesn’t match multiple more authoritative sources data?
Because I seem to be the only person offering cites or facts.
Yet another cite, showing bias that will be hand waved away with no cite and only opinion as a rebuttal.
It is a cite. But an irrelevant cite of one person’s bias is proof of what exactly?
In actual science, evidence shows real differences in the aggregate between male and female brain. As to be expected. How men's and women's brains are different | Stanford Medicine
Gian Franco Kasper, the president of the International Ski Federation since 1990 and a member of the IOC post 2000?
The HEAD of the organization that blocked women’s participation in the World Cup, which then others claim that it wasn’t “established”
The same individual who voted deny participation in Vancouver, even when a woman, Lindsey Van held the overall normal hill record on that jump until the actual Olympics where the best male competitor only officially beat that distance by 2.5 meters?
The International Ski Federation ruled that ski jumping is too dangerous for women, making it the only winter Olympic sport that had no female competitors?
Even with less opportunity, and a smaller allowed field the top Women competitors were in the same distance and by total score Maren Lunby would have had the gold.
Seriously, I concede due due a battle of attrition because hand waving this away as “one person’s bias” really just proves that cites and facts don’t matter at all in this thread anymore.
Espically when you provide cites that say:
And
While claiming that they do matter in sports.
So what? It’s one sport. We are talking about sport in general. Not one person’s opinion on women in one particular sport.
Read the article a bit more carefully. It seems you only want to see what you want to see while ignoring things that you actually quoted like the “extremes of the bell curve.” Well where in the world do you think Olympic or top professional caliber sports lie? The extreme of the bell curve. The brains scan differently. The brains have regions of different sizes. Saying biology, which the brain is part of, plays no role is strictly an ideological argument.
Just because hand-waving this away as “one person” with bias is so unjustified in this case I’ll add this.
https://www.olympic.org/mr-gian-franco-kasper
Non-IOC roles:
Organiser of Skiing and Bobsleigh World Championships
Secretary General (1975-1998) then President (1998-) of the International Ski Federation (FIS);
Secretary General (1975-1998) then President (2000-2002, then 2014-) of the Association of International Olympic Winter Sports Federations (AIOWF);
Member of the following IOC Commissions:
Radio and Television (1981-2015)
Coordination for the XIX Olympic Winter Games Salt Lake City 2002 (1999-2002)
Coordination for the XX Olympic Winter Games Torino 2006 (2000-2006)
Olympic Games Study (2002-2003)
Coordination for the XXI Olympic Winter Games Vancouver 2010 (2003-2010)
Coordination for the XXII Olympic Winter Games Sochi 2014 (2007-2014)
Coordination for the XXIII Olympic Winter Games PyeongChang 2018 (2011-)
For him to claim that women are too fragile to ski jump is the smoking gun.
He has been the principal administrator or president in control of the administrating body (FIS) for over 40 years.
And note this short list of names.
https://www.olympic.org/coordination-commissions
And if you want to know just how long this bias in ski jumping has been going on here is a good page.
Note the last URL in my previous reply…this is not “one person’s opinion on women”
But as your cite was not specific on what features make women unable to perform in “sports”, how about you make an argument and provide claims vs providing an ambiguous argument that you will just hand wave away.
Especially if you claim that Olympians need to be on the top or the bottom of the bell curve mentally, you need to target some function that can actually be discussed besides “but there may be something so WIN” type argument.
To quote your cite:
So provide an argument that shows that we cannot ignore them!!
Also explain why the opaque generalized and non-specific claims you have made are any different than these quotes from the last link in my last post.
Note how the second one pretty much exactly lines up with one of the few individuals who was setting the rules that blocked female participation in ski jumping? And it is not too far off from your broadly defined “but there are differences” argument?
Sure you are pointing out structures that according to your own cite are primary related to sexual response areas, but unless you can demonstrate that there is a correlation with “sport” even in the general fashion, how is it any different than saying no because we don’t know if the uterus will explode?
You can’t make that claim (well you can but it holds no weight). The only way to know is to have men and women compete together on the same day, same hill, starting from the same point, same equipment etc. Personally I’d have no problem with that. Ski-jumping may be one of those very few sports where the greater natural strength and skill of men is balanced by the smaller bodyweight and aerodynamics of women.
Yes, I am not arguing that they must be combined, but staggered starts, or at least the same rules (women still aren’t allowed on the big hill in ski jump as an example) would be a huge starting point.
Lindsey Vonn, one of the best women in skiing has been asking for this forever. She want the challange, and to compete even if she isn’t competitive.
In ski jump the gender gap actually gets smaller when the hills get larger, and it is a smaller gap in the first place.
But because of that fact it is a good example, where the arguments seem to shift to “uteruses would fall out” type arguments to justify the inequality.
But we will never know unless these silly biased rules are changed.
It should be noted though that a woman has been within the top 10 players at one point (Judit Polgar).
Some people take that as proof however, that women are not as good at chess as men, since she and her sisters were groomed for chess greatness from an early age by their parents, and 8th in the world is as high as they got.
IMO, considering all top-level chess players receive tutoring from a young age, and considering to be one of the best in the world there probably is a genetic component and “regression to the mean” to contend with…I think it shows massive potential for women’s ratings to improve.
Whether in a hypothetical universe where the same number of men and women play the game seriously and receive equal training, men, women, or neither, gender would win more tournaments is difficult to say.
And really: I think it’s at least possible women have some natural advantage at the game, but that advantage is right now trivially swamped by other factors.
Speaking of uteruses, you are coming off a little hysterical.
Once the relevant international federation recommended that women’s ski jump be added to the Olympics, it was. Granted, it was added for 2014 instead of 2010, but this is an example of the system working. It certainly appears that the bottleneck was the FIS, and not the IOC.
I don’t know how one can argue it was the FIS. The timeline is what it is. The FIS didn’t have women in the World Cup until 2011.
Was the FIS sexist? Sure. Sexism is a thing, and it’s often so integrated in sport it is impossible to change. As a baseball fan I remain baffled and irritated at the fact that high level women’s competition has to be softball, not baseball, despite the fact that there is no really compelling physiological reason why that should be the case. But sports get into the Olympics how they do. I’m sorry the facts are what they are.
That said, I am now baffled as to what rat avatar’s thesis is. Is he saying women are capable of complete sport equity with men (which is insane) or just that there isn’t a cognitive difference (which may be the case but so what?)
Do not place another posters theory that women are mentally inferior in sport on me, seriously as a moderator one would think that you could better follow the spirit of the rules for this board.
Once again you claim fact while ignoring the facts.
Remember that ski jump was one of the original winter sports, and that women STILL don’t have equal access, and that they ONLY have access due to court action against the IOC.
I am baffled that you are unwilling to actually address the well documented cites, and still want to pretend that there is some hard separation between the industry groups, industry group Olympics organizations and the OIC.
Feel free to ignore the facts and come back with yet another ad hominem though.
It was not added despite the FIS recommendation, it was denied. It was a lawsuit in British Columbia, where the Olympics lost a discrimination case that resulted in a single event being added, and only on the small hill.
They lost that court action though if you are talking about the BC Court.
They lost the action to be added to the 2010 games, but won for inclusion in future gains.
The part they lost was the remediation, they won the discrimination portion.