Genetics vs. Jewish tradition?

Great Debates
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In recent genetic research focusing on the origins of peoples of Jewish faith it has been found that some of the traditional views of Jewish origin are incorrect while others have been confirmed. These finding were recently announced and this article gives a brief overview of it (it’s the NYT you need to be registered it’s free).

For the lazy reader I summarize: By following the Y line or the male descendent genetic line a majority of Jewish folks seem to come from three main areas. Western Europe, Turkey and the Middle East roughly were Israel, Lebanon and Jordan is located today. The Middle Eastern line is related to the Arabic speaking peoples of the same time. The male ancestors in Turkey and Europe founded the Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jewish cultures, but they did not as tradition holds it do so after having been exiled from Israel, the genetic evidence points to that they were local converts who for reasons multiple and unknown decided to take a hike and go all over the place a couple of thousand years ago. On the other hand the Middle Eastern line did leave the region and spread over Asia as far as to India along the tradition of the Diaspora.

Further, following the m-line or mitochondrial genetic line indicates that all three groups of gentlemen interbred more or less exclusively with local gals. The reasons for this are unknown, but should be fairly easy to guess at (at least if you’ve ever been a lonely guy on the road ;)).

About two thousand years ago interbreeding stopped and homogenous Jewish communities started forming in various places.

As noted the findings in this research confirms and refutes various myths and traditions about Jewry. For me as a non-believer in the concept of ‘race’ and distinct ethnic ‘peoples’ it is most astonishing that many people of Jewish faith seem to have bred pretty exclusively amongst themselves for as long as 2000 years. It also confirms that there was indeed a Diaspora although somewhat different than the tradition holds. It also indicates that already in an early age the Jewish fate was open to converts (as it still is and always has been). On the other hand it speaks against the idea of what is Jewish decent and traditional views on the Diaspora as outlined in Quranic, Biblical, Talmudic and rabbinic traditions. Thankfully it also refutes some awful myths propagated by racists and anti-Semites.

This is of course just yet another instance of the clash between scientific evidence and religious tradition. I am sure that believers will do as always and fall into three categories; first the ‘not true’ fundamentalists, second the ‘read the book in another way and it confirms this’ and the third ‘so what? the book is just symbolic and this has nothing to do with it’.

I don’t wish to debate the first category of resolution. For the purpose of this thread I propose that the findings are correct. From this point of view I would like to examine the specific impact, if any on:

The tradition of ‘all’ Jewish ‘peoples’ as being descendants from one of the exiled tribes of Israel.

Jewish messianic tradition as regards all Jew’s ‘return’ to Israel as part of the coming of Messiah.

The Orthodox and Conservative definition of Jewish decent along matrilineal lines counter the Reformist and Israeli citizenship granting matrilineal and patrilineal decent as basis.

And last but not least why did the Jewish communities close in on themselves and stop interbreeding with the population groups they were living with? Granted that this is not unique even if might not be the human norm, but in this case the possible reasons are of particular interest since the perception of a closed society ended up being a continuous source of conflict for Jewry all over the world.

As an endnote I would humbly request that anyone that feels that they need to throw around anti-Semitic or derogatory comments about any religion do so elsewhere than this thread. Although I am an atheist myself I respect those of faith and I don’t see that the findings here outlined denies anyone of Jewish or other faith neither the right nor a foundation to believe and exercise that belief. The interest here is to understand and examine different views on religious, social and cultural dynamics that formed an important part of Western and Middle Eastern society and still is the basis of much conflict, not which religion is more right or better than the other.

Sparc

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This is not a true statement. Judaism has always accepted converts. In addition, there is evidence that in the past (specifically during the times of the Roman occupation about 100 years before the destruction of the Temple) conversion to Judaism was a great deal more commonplace than it is today. But, in no case, can the claim be made that all Jews today are descended from the exiled tribes.

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Not quite sure what the problem here is. Those who are Jewish will return to Israel, those who aren’t wont.

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It’s not really as simple as that. Besides having a Jewish parent, the Reform movement also requires that the person in question have a Jewish upbringing to be considered Jewish if they only had one Jewish parent.

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Judaism has always discouraged intermarriage. There are laws in the Torah prohibiting marriage outside the religion. That doesn’t mean, of course, that it didn’t happen. Samson is criticized for marrying a Phillistine woman. Solomon is castigated for taking foreign wives. Ezra and Nehemiah contain stories of those leaders’ battles against intermarriage.

Intermarriage seems to have plummetted once the Jewish community arrived in Babylonia. While this was a problem in the Israeli community of the early Second Temple era, there is no record in the Talmud of intermarriage being a rampant problem in Babylon. It could well be that the Babylonian community developed a greater sense of community and simply stopped intermarrying. That tradition, plus the persecution that the Jews suffered in Europe afterwards probably helped to “isolate” the Jews and discourage intermarriage. It is interesting to note that in colonial times in America, the intermarriage rate was extremely high. This may be due to the fact that, for the most part, they were not subject to the persecution that they were subject to in Europe.

Simply my $1/50.

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This is not exactly related to your central thesis, but I present it to clear up what may be a common misconception: Reform Judaism and Patrilineal Descent. Individual practice may differ, but does not reflect the ‘official’ stand. I can’t speak as to whether this holds for Israeli citizenship, unfortunately.

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And further up in the OP I made exactly the same observation. Maybe I shouldn’t have written ‘tradition’ when I rather meant misconception.

Note that a return to Israel would imply an origin in Israel, which the research I refer to indicates not being the case. Am I to understand that it would be acceptable in your interpretation of the Messianic legacy that a ‘return’ is more a return to the roots of Judaism? If so, is Israel to be viewed as a symbolic reference to the Promised Land and how does the geographic Israel of today play in that scenario?

Fine. I didn’t narrow it down to only parental creed. I understand that there is more to it. However, say that the genetic evidence is correct, then the origin of Judaism is from a group of men. Wouldn’t this speak against a base in tradition of the Orthodox non-acceptance of patrilineal descent?

The research I present seems rather to contradict this traditional view and indicates that intermarriage was the norm, especially in Babylonia all the way up to less than 2000 years ago. Note also that the research shows that roughly two thirds of the ‘original’ Jews were never anywhere else than in Babylon.

For the rest as re the isolation of Judaic communities that would be my immediate analysis as well, but beyond the external threat, would there be basis for isolation in Talmudic law? You touch upon something like this earlier when you bring up Samson et al.

Sparc

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I’m not sure I see the debate. Both the overview in the OP and the actual text of the article are very close to my memory of Dr. Solomon Grayzel’s narrative in A History of the Jews. The article, itself, begins

In other words, there are some surprising details regarding the specifics of intermarriage, but the DNA tends to confirm the already published versions of the routes of the Diaspora evn while it challenges some notions of the individuals who made the journeys. (It will irritate John John that the Ashkenazim were not all Khazars, but science can’t make everyone happy.)

I guess the “return” issue might surprise some, but I have always understood it to mean that everyone who becomes (or is born) Jewish is a spiritual child of Abraham and that nothing in (for example) the Israeli “Right of Return” law was based on an ethnic understanding of Jewishness.

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Well, tomndebb has it exactly right: once a person converts to Judaism in accordance with Jewish law, then they are considered a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob for virtually all purposes: spiritual descendancy trumps biology. In effect, a convert has been reborn as a Jew; indeed, Jewish law states explicitly that a convert is considered like a newborn. In that sense, then, they can - and, when G-d wills it, they will - “return” to the land, even though their biological ancestors didn’t originate there, because their spiritual ancestors did.

No, because we have no way of knowing whether these women were converted according to Jewish law. To disprove the principle that matrilineal descent determines Jewishness, you would have to prove that these women remained non-Jewish, which obviously isn’t something determinable by biology.

Not really - all it proves is that these women (or their maternal ancestors) were descended from non-Jewish stock; it tells us absolutely nothing about their religious affiliation.

IOW, it basically comes down to the meaning of the word “intermarriage”: it means one thing to biology (marrying someone from a different genetic pool) and something different in Jewish law (marrying someone from a different faith community). The research you cite gives us information about the former, but nothing about the latter.

Indeed there is. The law against Jews marrying non-Jews is codified by Maimonides (Laws of Forbidden Relations 12:1), based on a Talmudic discussion (Avodah Zarah 36b), which in turn is based on Biblical passages (Deut. 7:3, supported by Ezra 9:12 and Nehemiah 10:31 - the latter two being in the passages that zev referred to concerning Ezra’s and Nehemiah’s actions against intermarriage).

As for fornication (sex outside of marriage) between Jews and non-Jews, that is prohibited by Rabbinical enactment (Talmud, ibid.; Maimonides, ibid. 12:2).

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A timely thread, afterall wasn’t this week’s parshe the story of Ruth?

For those who do not know the story Ruth was a “Jew by choice” having married a Jewish man who then died. She chose to stay Jewish and stayed with her mother-in-law following her back to Israel where she married another Jew and gave birth to the grandfather (I think, if I’ve got my generations right) of King David, who tradition has will be the line of which the Messiah will come out of.

So Jewish tradition has it that the Messiah originates from a line that owes itself to a matriach that is a convert to Judaism.

(Does this make me a member of the “read the book another way …” camp?)

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As was already said, the bilogical evidence is not inconsistant with the traditional “You’re Jewish if your mother was, you converted, or you were at Sinai when the Torah was given.” All it can comment on is, with the help of some statistitians, the percentage of converts to Judaism.

An interesting study would be to compare the Y DNA of Cohanim with “Middle Eastern” Y DNA. A Cohen is a male patralinial descendants of Aaron. A convert is never a Cohen, so here biology should be able to comment on whether tradition was upheld. If tradition is correct, the majority of Cohanim should have “Middle Eastern” DNA. The Cohanim who don’t have Middle Eastern Y DNA are probably fake Cohanim (not descendant from Aaron).

Interestingly, tradition tells us that in Messianic times, the direct male descendants if Jacob will learn again which tribe they are all from. It doesn’t say how this will happen. Perhaps with a DNA test.

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MHand Some of the answer to your question: