Gentle Mary, Meek and Mild?

Great Debates
1

Since it’s Christmas Eve, I thought I’d toss this one out into GD.

Growing up in the good, old Anglo-Catholic tradition, Mary, the mother of Christ was always depicted as being meek, gentle, and obedient, all the things good little girls were supposed to be. As an adult, I’m not so sure the first two are true. After all according to Luke, her first reaction to being told she’s going to have a child is to say, “How can this be? I am still a virgin.” (Luke 1:34, for those who are interested.) She did agree, but she didn’t say the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55) until after she visited her cousin Elizabeth.

My current vision of Mary is one of a woman of tremendous strength, courage, and spirit. Yes, she was obedient, but to face all that she did, started with being pregnant out of wedlock in a society in which women were stoned for committing adultery must have taken tremendous spirit and courage. Remaining with her son during his ministry, and, perhaps worst, watching him die a painful, humiliating death, one which must have seemed to directly contradict the words of the Annunciation, “the Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David and he will be king over Israel for ever;” would have taken tremendous strength and courage. She even, as noted above questions God. Not exactly the meek, mild obedient Virgin of my childhood, although certainly a woman I feel like I have much more in common with. (Although, mind you, I never bought the Catholic Church’s “perpetual virgin” tradition, prefering, obviously, the Anglican stance on it.)

Since I started poking my nose into religious matters around here, I’ve come to realize how little I know of Christian perspectives outside my own, and I’m curious about how she’s depicted by other Christian denominations and by Islam. I’ve no doubt that, by seeing Mary as a spirited, intelligent, courageous woman, I’m projecting some of the qualities I admire on to her. How do other people see her?

Oh, and whatever religion you follow or don’t follow, Happy Holidays!
CJ

2

Part of the problem may be our English understanding of the word “meek/meekness” - I have heard it said that the Greek word used can be translated as “strength under control” - this site is the most well referenced site quoting this idea that I can find. Another site translates it as “the wild horse that has become obedient to the bit and bridle.”

All of this would tie in well with your understanding of Mary as a “spirited, intelligent, courageous woman” - someone who does not allow her strength/passion to rule her, but controls and focuses it to do what must be done.

Someone to be admired indeed…

Grim

3

P.S. I always thought it was “Gentle Jesus, meek and mild”

:slight_smile: Grim

4

I don’t picture Mary’s “How can this be?” question as disobedient - merely inquisitive. She’s being told that her child will do great things after he’s born, and she simply wonders how this is going to happen, since she is still a virgin.

That said, I don’t dispute your vision of her as having “…tremendous strength, courage, and spirit…” for all the reasons you mention.

  • Rick
5

I don’t see it as disobedient either, more as a sign of intelligence and curiousity. Nevertheless, I could see how a culture which expects women to be unquestioningly obedient could see it as such.

CJ

6

I’m not sure I understand your meaning. First, you say Mary was always held up to you as a perfectly obedient person, and then you say that her questioning of the angel could be taken as disobedience in some cultures, only it wasn’t? If the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages could hold her up as a model of obedience, then I should think that anybody could.

Anyway, I see that question as a simple desire for information: how is this going to work, anyway? Note, in contrast, that Zacharias asked in a spirit of doubt for a sign (as if an angel showing up and saying ‘your lifelong prayer is going to be answered!’ is something ordinary). He got a sign, just like he asked for–he just didn’t like it much once it came.

It seems clear to me that she was a very strong and courageous person indeed, to be asked to do such a thing. Not only to deal with the inevitable gossip and shame of a quick marriage and early birth, but also to eventually have to see her son cast out, humiliated, and finally crucified. She was, I believe, also meek and obedient to her God. Asking simple questions (or hard ones, for that matter) does not equal disobedience or pride, and I have never thought of meekness as being weak or easily broken.

7

Siege, I agree with you about Mary, although I also agree that our definition of “meek” and “mild” has evolved. Neither one of those words should imply lack of strength or courage or intelligence. After all, Jesus describes himself as “meek and lowly in heart (Matthew ch 11).”

When Mary is told by the angel that she is to bear Emmanuel, her first question may be one of incredulity: “How can this be?” What I like is that the angel also tell her that her cousin Elizabeth, who is supposed to be barren, is six months pregnant. So what’s the first thing that Mary does after the angel’s visit? She heads out to visit Elizabeth, to check it out. I like to think that seeing Elizabeth’s state – and the news that Liz’s baby “leapt for joy” on hearing Mary’s voice – was conformation for Mary that what the angel said was true. That’s when she sings the Magnificat.

Another good Mary story that shows her character as a strong woman is the Wedding at Cana. She is the one who convinces Jesus to turn the water into wine, and she is the one who orders those serving the drinks, “Do whatever he tells you to.”

And of course as you mentioned, she has the strength to stay with Jesus throughout his torture and crucifixion – when apparently all of the male disciples (except John) had turned tail and run. She was incredible.

8

Then, after Jesus was crucified, she spent her declining years living with St. John.

Jesus she could probably deal with. Being God, He knew all the law and commandments by heart, including the one about “honor your father and mother”, so he was proably a really easy kid. As an adult, well, he had some strange ideas, and there were miracles and such, but mostly He was a pretty laid-back, easy to get along with guy.

John, on the other hand, was this weird mystic, probably still in his teens when Mary moved in with him. He was probably having visions, and telling her all about them when he wasn’t busy writing them down (see, then there was a dragon with seven heads and ten horns, and, and…). Probably freaked Mary out on a regular basis.

9

That was a different John.

10

Didn’t see the “mother of Christ” part. I was thinking this was a thread about her.

11

while I love the song “Mary, Did You Know”, I’m always mentally screaming when I hear it “No, she bloody well did not! She did NOT know her child was God Enfleshed, that He would be the Healer & Teacher & Ultimate Sacrifice for Israel & humanity. She thought what everyone else thought when they heard the word ‘Messiah’- that her boy was gonna kick Roman ass & rule the world.” Her Magnificat shows us that.

12

You realize of course that her mild-mannered exterior was merely a facade while she worked at a great metropolitan newspaper.

13

No, it was the same John–writer of the Gospel of John, as well as book of Revelation and (according to tradition) the epistles of John.