For both Webb and Allen, it would appear. It’s like a race to see who can lose more decisively.
Again, though, there still isn’t much evidence that Webb is organizing any of the people coming forward, despite Allen’s claims to the contrary.
On the other hand, it looks like Allen’s attack on Webb is unravelling:
http://notlarrysabato.typepad.com/doh/2006/09/flying_back_at_.html
In short, there is an audiotape of the interview that doesn’t contain any part of the claimed story, and Cragg can’t account for why it doesn’t. The guy’s not being very smart about stating his motives either: "According to Cragg, when Webb did not publicly repudiate the allegations against Allen, he decided to “level the playing field.”
In short, as things stand, there isn’t much direct evidence of Webb playing dirty. Allen’s job, at least while treading water, is to try and make that claim, but the evidence seems quite lacking.
Normally, when some figure comes out of a guy’s past from 30 years or so ago and claims he did despicable things, but there’s no evidence and it’s just his word against the other guy’s, you’ve got to take it all with a grain of salt.
But if other people start coming out of the woodwork saying the same thing, then there must be something there. Why would they all lie? Some of them are even in his party, and don’t seem to have anything political to gain by seeing him defeated.
And when the number of complainants gets up into the dozens, and they start signing sworn affidavits attesting to the behaviour, and they all agree on the essential facts, you really have to stop and listen.
And if it turns out that some of them are really serious people, like Admirals and Judge-Advocate Generals and people like that, I think you have to give them some credit.
We are talking about the Swiftboat Vets, aren’t we?
Oh, sorry. They were attacking a Democrat. So they were obviously scum. The guys attacking the Republican, on the other hand, clearly have hearts as pure as the driven snow and only want to tell the truth.
Sam, with all due respect, you might look at two things:
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Whether these people, after all this time, are coming out of the woodwork as part of an orchestrated campaign, or acting individually in response to events in the news.
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Whether there’s good evidence that contradicts them.
Details, details.
Those with a knowledge of politcs before the 2004 were very familiar with John Kerry and his Vietnam controversy. The Swiftboat ads brought that out to the general public.
The allegations against Allen came completely out of left field. Very different situation.
I had thought that the Swiftboat lies had all been thoroughly debunked. I think the difference between the allegations in the Kerry Swift Boat and the Allen racism cases are that the accusations against Allen have some merit.
At least Sam Stone has taken a stand that the charges against Allen must be given credit. Good on you, Sam.
George Allen also apparently likes to spit jets of tobacco juice at women’s feet. The link cites four separate instances of this. Only one of the witnesses is anonymous, and two are fairly well-known: New Republic reporter Ryan Lizza, and Jimmy Carter’s granddaughter (and Senate candidate Jack Carter’s daughter) Sarah Carter.
I guess Sen. Allen forgot about the “gentleman” part of the phrase “Southern gentleman” when he decided to convert from California surfer boy to Confederate.
Is there any evidence at all that Webb, or a Webb supporter, is behind a concerted effort to get the word out about Allen’s past? It does look as if it’s a random collection of people, but maybe someone does have an axe to grind? Has the Allen campaign claimed anything like a Swiftboating?
Sam, I’m sure in your mind - just like Reagan winning the Cold War and WMD’s being found in Iraq- this is exactly what happened.
It does not, as of yet, appear to be costing Allen the election. All it’s done is put the election into play. Webb has to step up to the plate now and give voters an affirmative reason for voting for him.
Makes me wonder if Allen’s prospects for a presidential bid (which is why I’m paying any attention to this at all) will be significantly affected. Goodness knows I’ve been wrong about the impact of skeletons in closets before.
I agree with John Mace on that - his Presidential hopes are toast. He may or may not be re-elected as Senator, but even that will be a near thing. And this controversy will dog him for years.
Back in mid-2004, there were a couple of threads discussing possible 2008 candidates. I was the guy who kept pointing out that other posters were overlooking this George Allen guy on the GOP side of things. In just over two years, he’s gone from off the boards to co-frontrunner (with McCain) to toast. Amazing.
And yet, though you’ll never listen, we’re not really talking about just guys: we’re talking about a bunch of different people who don’t all know each other, who didn’t form an anti-Allen PAC, coming out spontaneously in response to Allen calling someone a liar for saying that he used a word he claims he never used. We’re talking about events that have been confirmed not just by people making claims in the present, but others corroborating that they talked about those events in the past.
So, basically, you’re going to need to include a either time machine or someone with 30 years worth of foresight in your little conspiracy order to make it stand up.
Do you think that time machines exist and that the Webb campaign owns one?
There are still a few bitter-enders, constitutionally incapable of admitting even to themselves that they got fooled. Right, Sam?
If there hadn’t been a “Macaca” video, or a series of increasingly-lame denials from Allen that he was using ethnic slurs even today, the old N-word stories would get shrugged off by reasonable people even if they’d come out. But Allen’s racism is now the story, and a credible one, because he created the issue himself.
It is pretty incredible the number of times he’s Howitzered his own foot. I was actually inclined, when first informed of the “macaca” incident, to doubt the worst. “Maybe he heard his mother say it, but didn’t really know what it meant?” The otherwise shocking stupidity of it seemed to demand some sort of accidental explanation, some misunderstanding. In fact, if he’d used that excuse, I probably would have believed him, because the alternative bordered on the surreal. Instead he claimed he just made the word up on the spot, a meaningless string of syllables, which, given his heritage, was about the most idiotic explanation he could have come up with.
Another night, another person comes forward:
New info:
- There is now a third on the record confirmation that the deer head thing DID, in fact, happen. Again, this person can’t confirm the racial overtones, but Allen denied the whole story. Three different people now say he’s lying.
- Yet another on the record voice saying he used the word all the time, including calling black players “roaches” as well.
- Most interesting of all, apparently some of Allen’s teammates made a pact in 1991 not to divulge embarrasing things they knew about his past. Hmmm… I wonder…
So, I wonder: can Bricker or Sam offer anything other than drivebys on this topic? Or, if this one bores you, how about:
- Why exactly did the House Republican leadership not do anything for almost a year after they found out that Foley was chatting up underage boys with sexy talk? Why let him carry on with his sex offender group? Why stay silent while Foley called the charges lies and said that the Democratic party was lying in claiming that he did it?
- The Bush administration claims that Abramoff was barely known. Yet, there are several hundred emails back and forth, including emails that confirm that they were doing favors for the guy, even discussing quid pro quo (like nixing the employment of the wife of a McCain pal who they called “McCain’s wife”) as WELL as several of the emails that say things like “hey, we shouldn’t continue this discussion over this email we might get in trouble, let’s talk more in person.” Abramoff himself has billing records for countless dinners and trips with white House people. So… how do you square this with the claim that Abramoff was barely known at all? I mean, him and Karl Rove’s secretary chatted regularly.
Could it be? The anti-Swiftboating!
BTW, got a link for that? Thanks in advance!
http://notlarrysabato.typepad.com/ has all the latest.
Thanks, again. Should have just headed for Salon, the obvious choice.
Just amazing.