George Bush shut the fuck up!

[Ryan_Liam]

It is dreadfully sad that you were born in the wrong country Ryan

Yes, yes it is.

[World_Eater]

@Ryan_Liam

No please continue, why did you leave out the comparison of the Ashura bombings?

What are you talking about? Link again please.

Won’t happen. Next!

Go read a history book.

thats the risk you take when insurgents want to destabilise and derail the government, its going to happen.

I’m at a loss for words.

Doesn’t make sense after either, they needs these people to come into the fold to ensure a stable a civil society forms and remains, revenge serves nothing in the long term.

They don’t need them in the fold at all. Does Bush have to include democrats into the fold?

I also find this “why would they want revenge?” statement to be hysterical? Because they’re pissed off petty human beings just like the rest of the world. Revenge is practically the lubrication of the entire world.

So now its gone to ‘waiting after the US has gone’ has it? Just keep moving the reason the cause, I’m sure somewhere in the end, you’ll get to your answer. :rolleyes:

I have consistently said that the real fireworks will begin when the US pulls out. Go search and see for yourself.

Yes, ‘you’ don’t, but I do, and I don’t want to have my opinions on this board treated as rubbish just because I see a positive outcome.

Ryan I’d say there are two reasons why people treat you the way they do.

1. This is a board dedicated to fighting ignorance, thus uttering vague unsupported opinions doesn’t lend much support to your point of view.

2. You make no attempt whatsoever to see the other side of things or to employ critical thinking. Over the years, I’ve had some stances that have been reversed due to the meticulous attack of fact and reason. I’m happy to say I’m better because of it. Sometimes you’re right, sometimes you’re not, but you always learn something either way.

Law and order seems to be improving, look at the comparison of 2003-2004,

http://icasualties.org/oif/default.aspx

Improving?

first 2 months of 2004 - 60 soldiers killed

first 2 months of 2005 - 59 soldiers killed

That’s some improvement!

guerilla wars aren’t won with just large scale bombings, they’re won with the wearing down of the enemy with constant attack with smaller arms and low intensity warfare.

The insurgents are employing both tactics.

Large scale attacks are a sign of how they need the maximum publicity and devastation in order to demoralise and frighten the enemy, but this is all short term gain, if they can’t project their power through other than these types of tactics, it won’t work as it loses them support.

Ah yes, straight from the Rumsfeld school of thought. They’re intensifying their attacks because they’re getting “desperate”. :rolleyes:

So you’re saying with a straight face that they’re using large scale attacks for the PR value, but haha the jokes on them because the more big boom attacks they do, the more it only hurts them.

Wtf?

How many insurgents control Iraqi cities now?

How many people died yesterday in that carbomb attack? 120? 130?

We can’t even secure the road to the Bagdad airport.

And I keep saying, the Iraqis have one extra advantage, they’re not foreign.

And I say that one advantage is cancelled by about 10 disadvantages

And now it does, and has changed its viewpoint considerably, considering the US hadn’t been in a largescale invasion and occupation for over 30 years, its understandable there would be some naivety there.

Oh I get it, we’re “a bit rusty” at invading at occupying countries so forgive us for the sloppy job. Do you hold anyone accountable for anything?

Yes, I see it as a situation like that to Northern Ireland, or Colombia somewhat for a number of years after we’ve left.

Seeing as what’s going on in Iraq is nothing like NI or Columbia, it’s a bit silly to say it will go the same.

[qute]Don’t worry I will, you can count on that.
[/quote]

I’m sure you will.

[quote]
Yes, if the army is as you say ‘ineffective and uncapable’ surely there would be some who would be convinced that the US would want Iraq to be incapable of being independent on its own, without the US, this surely would amount to defections amongst them to the ranks of the insurgents to get us out.

This doesn’t even make logical sense. Why would the Iraqi soldiers suddenly defect and join the people killing them? Please, explain this to me.

I’m not one to think that insurgents are to be tolerated, or even approached like this, but thats the reality of the situation, and we all know that an insurgency cannot be defeated by arms alone, if they’re brought under the political process, then its better.

Good, I’m looking to the US engaging OBL and Zarqawi in dialog.

[ZombiesAteMyBrain]

[QUOTE=calm kiwi]
It is dreadfully sad that you were born in the wrong country Ryan

Since you are in the UK, Ryan, I hope you watched the first of Channel 4’s series of documentaries on Guantanamo and Torture, which started last night - you can see the first episode again after tonight’s, though.

Yesterday showed a mock up of Guantanamo - and 7 volunteers from the public [only 3 Moslems] were put through the milder forms of torture as practiced there - by former guards - for 48 hours. Only 4 stuck it out for the whole 2 days.

The volunteers who went in thinking maybe torture was necessary had sure changed their minds when they came out - The consensus [from the prisoners] at the end was that any information obtained under those conditions would be valueless. Even in that short times these guys would have said anything, about anybody, to make the pain stop.

I wonder if you would be so keen on Bush’s policies if you had been one of those volunteers - who went through that to show the British public what is really going on in our name - as members of the coalition.

[ZombiesAteMyBrain]

I apologise to the coding cops for making a mistake in my last post.

[Ryan_Liam]

I wonder if you would be so keen on Bush’s policies if you had been one of those volunteers - who went through that to show the British public what is really going on in our name - as members of the coalition.

Yeah, because Guantanamo bay accounts for over 90% of the war on terror. What planet are you living on? And what frigging assumption do you think I support that sort of treatment?

I know whats going on in our name, and this is the result of it.

Palestinian-Israeli negotiations with real prospect of change

Lebanese demonstrations against Syrian occupation

Afghan and Iraqi emerging democracies

Egyptian presidential candidates allowed to stand in a free and fair election for the first time.

Libyian disarnament,

You can go over the negatives but I don’t care.

Go read a history book.

Yes the ‘Irish peace process’

Next!

I’m at a loss for words.

Considering an insurgency has been running for 2 years, I think they’re all prvy to the knowledge this could happen, they’re brave people and I commend them. That clear it up for you?

They don’t need them in the fold at all. Does Bush have to include democrats into the fold?

Well since the democrats don’t represent a single ethnic grouping or culture, but a broad range, thats irrelevant, but in Iraq however, the parties are more on the lines of ethnic and religious identity, so yes they are important, which is why the Shia and Kurds want an ethnic unity government in place.

I also find this “why would they want revenge?” statement to be hysterical? Because they’re pissed off petty human beings just like the rest of the world. Revenge is practically the lubrication of the entire world.

I know, you’re right, however the leadership, in the interests of its people in the long term, will seek to not react to such violence, because they know why its happening. Which they’ve stated in the media countless times, I think you’ve forgotten to read this up.

1. This is a board dedicated to fighting ignorance, thus uttering vague unsupported opinions doesn’t lend much support to your point of view.

I can’t win, I give you links, to substantiate my opinions, and yet its still not enough I go back and get some more, and still you’re not satisfied. Your loss I guess.

2. You make no attempt whatsoever to see the other side of things or to employ critical thinking. Over the years, I’ve had some stances that have been reversed due to the meticulous attack of fact and reason. I’m happy to say I’m better because of it. Sometimes you’re right, sometimes you’re not, but you always learn something either way.

I do my critical thinking away from the board hence my one dimensional viewpoint, I understand your outlook, but I flatly believe its wrong. Just like half the board thinks I’m wrong in believing Iraq will be a success, but as you said we’re all entitiled to our opinion, and I for one believe Iraq will succeed.

The insurgents are employing both tactics.

Yes, but have increased car boming to gain media attention.

Ah yes, straight from the Rumsfeld school of thought. They’re intensifying their attacks because they’re getting “desperate”.

Its true, they’ve lost Fallujah, Samarra and never gained Ramadi or Mosul, they lost the town of Latifyah south of Baghdad, remember Sadr city, hot bed of insurgent activity? Pacified through economic investment and negotiation. The’ve lost large urban bases for support and allies through the Shia in Baghdad who’ve joined the political process.

I’ll give the example of the recently assasinated Lebanon PM, if he was killed by arms fire, it wouldn’t of reached the intensity of upset or publicity in which a car bomb can achieve, the insurgents in Iraq are carrying out the same tactic. Large scale bombings to gain maximum publicity.

So you’re saying with a straight face that they’re using large scale attacks for the PR value, but haha the jokes on them because the more big boom attacks they do, the more it only hurts them.

Yes because large scale killings of civilians always works for the terrorists doesn’t it moron? Those types of actions usually unite the communities rather than dividing them.

What frigging support can they get killing hundreds of innocents?

We can’t even secure the road to the Bagdad airport.

Its near an Airport used for military personnel as well as civilian, a magnet for terrorists, what do you expect? You think I deny all thats going on? Implying we can’t secure any road in Iraq is ludicrious.

How many people died yesterday in that carbomb attack? 120? 130?

And? with no proper bases like Fallujah or Mosul, they’re never going to be the effective force they claim they are. They’re never going to be able to take offensives or intimidate and occupy a portion of the population in which they can strike deeper against Coaltiion targets.

When proper security measures are taken into effect which stops that, then what?

And I say that one advantage is cancelled by about 10 disadvantages

I don’t think so.

Seeing as what’s going on in Iraq is nothing like NI or Columbia, it’s a bit silly to say it will go the same.

I don’t think so. NI because it has two distinct religious communities, nationalism and unionism on both sides, two which are completely polar to the other, yet they’re beginning to work together and though bumpy, has largely brought peace since the good friday agreement.

Good, I’m looking to the US engaging OBL and Zarqawi in dialog.

Hillarious. I’m looking forward to both of their heads on a stick.

[ZombiesAteMyBrain]

@Ryan_Liam

And what frigging assumption do you think I support that sort of treatment?

I know whats going on in our name, and this is the result of it.

Palestinian-Israeli negotiations with real prospect of change

Lebanese demonstrations against Syrian occupation

Afghan and Iraqi emerging democracies

Egyptian presidential candidates allowed to stand in a free and fair election for the first time.

Libyian disarnament,

You can go over the negatives but I don’t care.

Well, you support Bush, who supports the use of torture. And I would like to see some proof that anything good has come out of torturing prisoners - some of whom are American and British citizens. Did you see last night’s documentary - about how citizens from other countries have been kidnapped and then transported in a US plane to places like Egypt and Syria to be tortured - the US is out-sourcing the torture industry?

This isn’t ‘going over the negatives’ - this is highlighting criminal behavior.
http://www.channel4.com/news/microsites/T/torture/index.html

[Ryan_Liam]

Well, you support Bush, who supports the use of torture. And I would like to see some proof that anything good has come out of torturing prisoners - some of whom are American and British citizens. Did you see last night’s documentary - about how citizens from other countries have been kidnapped and then transported in a US plane to places like Egypt and Syria to be tortured - the US is out-sourcing the torture industry?

Great, trying to imply I support Bush the torturer, not the person who helped Iraq and Afghanistan go towards the goal of free and democratic government, its nice to know you think just because I support GWB that I must inheirently support the torture of people, yes, that must be my stance since I support GWB :rolleyes:

Guantanamo is terrible yes, and eventually the Administration will see it as a detrement, or the next one after it will, but this doesn’t stop me supporting what we’re doing in the Middle East.

As for outsourcing? No, I don’t think so, they’re sending them back to their countries of origin to do their time for crimes against the US, the UK is considering the same for its prisoners who are illegal immigrants and on terror charges. Anf if they’re exporting terror ‘industry’ as you say? Well eventually it will stop, thats all I can hope for since I cannot change the situation on my own.

[FinnAgain]

@Ryan_Liam

Great, trying to imply I support Bush the torturer, not the person who helped Iraq and Afghanistan go towards the goal of free and democratic government, its nice to know you think just because I support GWB that I must inheirently support the torture of people, yes, that must be my stance since I support GWB

Whether by ignorance or stupidity (you’re good at both) you give carte blanche to the Bush Regime, which routinely tortures innocents and those who aren’t accused of any crime.

You may want to cherry pick reality and call him “Bush the Liberator!” but you’re deliberately ignoring “Bush the coldblooded enemy of civil liberties.”

@Ryan_Liam

Guantanamo is terrible yes, and eventually the Administration will see it as a detrement, or the next one after it will, but this doesn’t stop me supporting what we’re doing in the Middle East.

I’ve got a phone call from cognitive dissonance for an idealogue. Anybody here fit that description?

In case you’re done being wilfully ignorant, think about where the people in gitmo come from. Why, that’s right, the Middle East! Wow… who’d a thunk it? Our global policy is somehow… connected. Trippy, eh?

@Ryan_Liam

As for outsourcing? No, I don’t think so, they’re sending them back to their countries of origin to do their time for crimes against the US,

Wrong. They’re not charged with any crimes, they’re simply sent to be tortured for information. They do this, because we can’t get away with it as easily in our country, what with that pesky rule of law and all.

@Ryan_Liam

. Anf if they’re exporting terror ‘industry’ as you say? Well eventually it will stop, thats all I can hope for since I cannot change the situation on my own.

A buddy of mine came up with a litmus test for idealogues. They tell you the way they see things, and how they should be, but they totally leave out all the steps that it takes to get there. Your faith that it will ‘eventually’ stop, (after we’ve violated how many people’s human rights?) is, without data, laughable. I certainly don’t see a trend toward condemning Bush. Hell, you yourself are too busy licking his balls to realize that he administration sponsors the torture of innocent human beings.

[ZombiesAteMyBrain]

@Ryan_Liam

As for outsourcing? No, I don’t think so, they’re sending them back to their countries of origin to do their time for crimes against the US,

You must be very trusting, if you believe this despite the amount of proof to the contrary.

One example

The US is believed to have returned, “rendered” or disappeared detainees in the “war on terror” to countries that the report cites for ill-treatment of detainees, including Maher Arar, a Canadian/Syrian national, who was transferred from US custody to Syria via Jordan in October 2002. He was allegedly subjected to severe torture in Syria and held for months in cruel, inhuman and degrading conditions. Yemeni national Jamil Qasim Saeed Mohammed was reportedly handed over to US custody by Pakistan agents on 26 October 2001 and flown out of Karachi International Airport in secret aboard a US Gulfstream jet. He was reportedly taken to Jordan. His current whereabouts are unknown and Amnesty International has never received a response to its requests to the US authorities for information on the case. Further detainees are believed to be held in “secret prisons” by the US or with its connivance within the borders of other states. And in Saudi Arabia, agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation are reported to have either interrogated or been present at the interrogation of US citizen Ahmed Abu 'Ali, arrested in June 2003 at US request. He has subsequently alleged he was tortured during his detention.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=569CFC5E8511F73585256FB60053F851

[Merijeek]

@ZombiesAteMyBrain

You must be very trusting, if you believe this despite the amount of proof to the contrary.

How can you be so stupid? There are no innocents in Gitmo, Abu G, etc. Anyone who gets picked up is a terrorist, no matter the evidence. The evidence of their guilt is the fact that they were arrested. If they hadn’t been arrested, they wouldn’t be a terrorist. Since they were arrested, they’re obviously terrorists.

Duh.

Well, maybe his attitude will change once they find an Irish Terrorist. Not that there’s ever been one of those, of course. I don’t think CD on his level would be defeated by anything short of a good waterboarding.

-Joe

[calm_kiwi]

@Ryan_Liam

Great, trying to imply I support Bush the torturer, not the person who helped Iraq and Afghanistan go towards the goal of free and democratic government, its nice to know you think just because I support GWB that I must inheirently support the torture of people, yes, that must be my stance since I support GWB :rolleyes:

Is this the Bush of anti-N Korea, anti-Iran or the country du jour (Syria} method ?

Guantanamo is terrible yes, and eventually the Administration will see it as a detrement, or the next one after it will, but this doesn’t stop me supporting what we’re doing in the Middle East.

Yes and the Australian bloke released after 3 years without charges, speaks to how effective and fair Gitmo is. He is now suing it seems. Good fucking job.

[Merijeek]

@calm kiwi

Yes and the Australian bloke released after 3 years without charges, speaks to how effective and fair Gitmo is. He is now suing it seems. Good fucking job.

Sure, but that aussie won’t be flying any more planes into the twin towers, will he?

Didn’t think so.

-Joe