Indeed.
Italics mine.
I don’t care, I don’t see any justification in letting Saddam remain in power because we’re scared of seeing people who practise Islam into government, which strangely enough, is supported by a considerable amount of people, if they want an Islamist government who the fuck are we to say otherwise? And hey, its not like they’re trampling on the democratic process, ready to institute a theocracy is it?
So because of that outcome you would refrain from getting involved completely, in any situation?
Oh please, I’m merely pointing out that thuggerry cannot be controlled or eradicated through complacency alone, sometimes making a stand regardless of what the outcome maybe, is the only way to stop it.
Well ok, I’ll consider your approach to this situation.
Ok, we’ve got Iraq Saddam dies after a long reign of power, Qusay tries to obtain leadership, it fails, and the country collapses into civil war, Kurdistani Republic is proclaimed, and Turkey invades, Turkey massacres and abuses Human rights in comparison to the Baaths in Baghdad, the Shia, declare independence, and fight for control of heavily split Baghdad, the complete anarchy creates more tumoil in an energy rich region more devastating that the Afghan war, do you see where I’m going? You can say the US was wrong to invade, or get involved, but sometimes by accident, it can be for the better, and in this case it seems to be a correct assumption.
Yep, the Soviets. Oh yeah, you’re exaggerating. This administration isn’t the end of the world, and I bet good money this type of hysterics was the norm for the Reagan administration.
No
Got it in one, I agree he’s done alot of bad policy decisions, but he’s hardly the devil incarnate, and I believe alot of the hatred is hyped up against him.
Scared? Where the hell did I mention that. Would you like to know my justification for “leaving SH in power”? We’d be 400 BILLION richer, still have global respect, and thousands of dead and injured soldiers wouldn’t be dead and injured.
Now it’s important to point out that the alternate to not invading isn’t to let SH do whatever the fuck he wanted. Do you follow me?
We should just be mindful not to replace SH with something worse, like say, a shite dominated theocracy with links to Iran. Only time will tell, but I’m not optimistic about things.
I take each situation on a case by case basis. Upon examination of the Iraq situation I would have waited longer to invade.
You know you should come live in the neighborhood I grew up in. The game is about survival, not running around preaching this and that. You would be amazed at what can be accomplished by complacency, namely YOU’RE LEFT THE FUCK ALONE. Look at a bazillion other countries and ask why they’re not having terrorists chant death to them. Now sometimes you have to throw the beatdown on a punk, and that’s fine. SH was no doubt a punk, but every punk has his price. $500 million to get rid of the punk? fine by me. $100 billion? Um, shit, that’s getting expensive. $400 Billion? Screw that, we could have healthcare, let him live. $1 TRILLION? At what point do you say he wasn’t worth it.
I’ve surpassed my threshold.
Sometimes by accident? Are you serious? So we just go in, blow them up, and hopefully everything will work out?
Who does better on a math quiz?
The person that prepares for all possible contingencies and is familiar with the work? Or maybe the guy that just rolls on in, and hopes he accidently passes?
Nobody said this administration was the end of the world. Personally I think it’s the fading of America as we know it into the history books, but thats my opinion.
People don’t like him because of his bad policy decisions, not because he’s a republican. Please get that through your thick skull.
Bush isn’t trusted or liked because there is the suspicion that the man and his corporate cronies have their own personal agendas (to the tune of “ka-ching!”) when it comes to embroiling America and her allies into turgid mish-mashes that are the result of his foreign policy decisions. “Bring democracy to another country? Hmm – and how much profit will my friends make out of the carcase while we’re doin’ that?”
Remember when I said that comparing Bush’s record of “freedom making” with Clinton’s wasn’t saying much? Clinton as far as Al-Qaeda went was a shade like someone playing “Pin the Tail on the Donkey” and completely missing the target, flailing around in the room, blind. Bush is more like, “To hell with the paper donkey – lets go blow up the neighbours. I feel a profit-making moment comin’ on.”
And yet, amazingly, while this view of Mr. Bush is crystal-clear to you, so much so that you seemingly cannot admit any other possible interpretation as valid… he gathered millions more votes and than his rival here in the U.S.
It boggles the mind, eh?
FTR I don’t think Bush is evil (although the cabal surrounding his (imo)), I think he’s some naive country bumpkin who shouldn’t be the president.
Not really. His campaign crew knew just what strings to pull in the emotional pattern that is America, and where. Just like selling a brand of soap powder.
Remind me not to buy a house next to you. I’m quite sure if you saw burglers breaking into my house you’d debate with yourself as to if it is your own best interest to call the police and get involved. Hey, I could be defaulting on my bills and they could be collection agents, right? And if my house caught fire, as long as the wind is blowing the other direction away from your house, you’d do nothing, because after all it is none of your concern that my house burns down. Why get invovled as there is no benefit to you.
?
Sorry, I’m having a problem reconciling these statements of yours.
Telling the World Court to fuck off is of no concern of yours. It doesn’t affect you. You’re not being told to fuck off. Maybe they deserve to be told to fuck off. Maybe they owe money to somebody? Kofi Anan for example. Or is it Kofi Anan paying them money? In any case, it doesn’t matter and is no concern of yours until it affects you personally. Lets here no more about it then, hm’kay?
Maybe the Geneva Conventions are being flaunted and people are being held on Orwelliean tips. Maybe they owe some drug debt to a bunch of enraged bookies and if you got involved those drug dealers would come around and bother you? Or shit, they could even be terrorists and their buddies could come around to blow you up!
Back to your comment on health care: Why would health matter to you at all? Unless you expected all the billions you quote for yourself, that is. Well, that health care could be going to fix that guy being beat up by the hoodlums on the street if we follow our little scenario to its end. If you couldn’t be bothered to lift a finger to stop the beating, why would you care if he got health care to cure him after the fact? Or for anyone else given how you view assisting others.
I apologise for ranting because you actually have a very valid point. I have just got to the stage where seeing his face makes me cringe. Not a mature attitude I admit.
Shall I ask the Mods if I can change my name to prone-to-hissy-fits kiwi?
See I thought I was living in an island in the middle of the Pacific. An Island that has done it’s fair share. Now I know we are just hiding here I feel so secretive.
How to you choose who to protect and who to ignore?
And Clinton did more to promote the power of the blow job…your point is what?
The difference is that you and your neighbour both have houses in the same country subjected to the same laws. Therefore you and your neighbour are both aware of the laws.
Your country and another country do not have the same laws.
NZ does not have the death penalty. Does George want to come down here and make us bump off our murderers in our own best interest?
NZ has legal prostitution. Does George want to come and teach us how to be more moral?
Why is it ok for the US to have nukes yet the thought of Iran having nukes puts George in a frenzy?
This is why the UN is a good thing and America playing world cop is not. If a significant portion of the world agrees a country needs protecting or is being “bad” that is one thing. For Mr Bush to decide that, is a whole other thing.
This is why I believe he is breeding terrorism. He is making those who he has problems with feel persecuted and some of them decide to take matters into their own hands BEFORE he arrives democracise them.
Oh and well said World Eater and Ice Wolf
So, you are saying you’d help your neighbour if he was being beat up by thugs (this is assuming you can answer all the caveats of World Eater)?
I see. So, people thrown in prison camp in NK because they bad mouth a dead dictator is okay with you because NK has laws that are different than NZ? In NZ the people have a say about their laws which is why you can have no death penalty and legalized prostitution. In NK people have no choice. I’m sure you can figure out which is a better system for people, can’t you?
If you had the choice of a nuclear armed US, or a nuclear armed Iran, as your neighbour which would you honestly pick? I’m sure that all the countries around Iran are just hoping that Iran gets the bomb, yep, I’m sure. :rolleyes:
To bad a significant portion of the world does nothing to protect the ‘people’ of those countries like Iraq and NK. The ‘country’ is only a line drawn on a map. The people in them are what matters. And while the country is protected the people in them are killed at the will of whatever monsters run the place.
Or, they could democratize themselves and avoid the problem in the first place. How horrible for the people of those countries if their leaders actually allowed them a voice in their own affairs. Let’s see, what are Mr. Terrorist’s choices? Strap a bomb to myself and blow up myself and my fellow citizens, OR pick up a shovel, broom, hammer, or other constructive tool, and start cleaning up the mess generated by removal of, what everyone agrees, was a brutal dictator ie. Saddam. Sorry, terrorists and dictators breed themselves. It is up to the entire world to eliminate them and not kowtow to their demands. If everyone did this then there’d be no more dictators. If the entire world stood up to Kim Jung and Saddam and kicked the buggers out we wouldn’t be in messes like this.
And frankly if guys like Kim Jung feel a little worried because of GW that is more than the UN has ever done to him.
…on the 25th of April every year, New Zealanders and Australians commemorate ANZAC day, to remember the events at Gallipoli in 1915. Gallipoli was a turning point in our nation-we lost nearly 3000 people during the eight month campaign, a devestating amount of people for a country this small. Our nation learned a harsh lesson-and that lesson was be very careful entrusting the lives of your soldiers to Generals from other nations. Our soldiers are well trained, they are brave, and if called upon to fight, they most certainly would. But we would only do it when we trust the commanders leading us, and we have faith in the statergy guiding the campaign.
So if you consider that the US are being seen as empire builders, and a multi-national force supported by local governments and populations would hinder that thinking, wouldn’t you think it would be logical for the US to have handed over control to the United Nations early in the occupation?
…we offered-we were there for a year. We were there, in the mess, for Iraq’s sake. At the end of that year, there was nothing more we could do.
…oooh, your right, we should do something about things like this…
Maybe you’d like to read this newly commisioned 94 page report on torture in Iraq …
Some quotes for you…
So Uzi, at what point do you stand by and not do something when others are hurting or being killed? If you saw your neighbour being attacked on the street, what would you do? Close your curtains? Call the police? Go out and stop the attackers? Maybe the United States should invade Iraq and stop this abuse…oh right! They already have! Ooo, and how do they handle this abuse of prisoners?
So spare me the analogies about seeing your neighbours being beaten up by thugs-because that is exactly what is going on right now in Iraq, and the United States is allowing it to happen. New Zealand is more than happy to help out with humanitarian aid, they are more than happy to provide logistical support, but I’ll be dammed if our army stands and is led by one that allows this disgusting hypocritical bullshit to go on.
…I think that you’ve missed one of the main points of the thread… we don’t give a shit whether or not President Bush is a lefty or a righty, we are judging his preformance on his actions alone. Ask you a question-how many derogatory remarks and hate was directed towards the first President Bush?
If this is supposed to make me say yes, so you can then say “HA that’s all Bush is doing” then all I can say is nice try. As far as many in Iran are concerned Bush IS the thug beating up the neighbour.
No it’s not. So how come Mr Bush decided Iraqi’s were more in need then North Korean’s? Does he have a specific order when it comes to who deserves democracy more? Does he intend to free them country by country, or will he free all the ones with valuable natural resources first and then move on to the others?
I don’t recall being given a choice. Well actually I do. NZ chose NOT to allow nuclear armed ships into our harbours. Our democratic choice was rewarded with being thrown out of ANZUS.
Just as well a significant portion of the world are not vigilantes because dearest George does not seem to be terribly popular with most of them.
Some of them seem to be a bit concerned about being occupied by foreign forces.
When you paint a lunatic into a corner don’t be surprised if he fights back.
And our soldiers remember Dieppe. The past is the past. Unless you want me to bring up the only reason NZ isn’t part of Japan now is because the US was there to stop them, then lets leave the past there.
Why doesn’t the UN take control if they feel so strongly about it?
Yes, someone should do something about it. Isn’t that what the UN is for? And do you think that everything after a war is cured overnight? What people don’t understand, and this is one of the main reasons I am against this war, is that in order for democracy to work in the sort of culture in Iraq it would take a generation of education to get people to understand why democracy is better for them than the leadership of the local mullah or strong man. Ain’t going to happen given the quick fix thinking in the West.
Get in there and stop it. What other solution do you have? Stand by and hope for the best?
Ever thought that the US has bitten off more than it can chew (even though they won’t admit it themselves) at this point and one of the reasons this shit is going on is because they can’t be everywhere all the time? Do you seriously think that Americans want people to be tortured? That the typical soldier wants people to be tortured? Barring the occasional fuckasses, I don’t think this is true. If the Nations of the world want this to stop then all they have to do is step up to the plate. They won’t because they are more interested in seeing the US fail than in helping out the people in Iraq.
Your perspective is wonderful as you think Saddam and GW are one and the same.
Probably he chose Iraq because 1) He thinks it is in the US’s self interest to be there and keep a stable region (not that I agree), 2) it is better to fight terrorists there than at home. I really don’t know as I haven’t talked to the man.
Keep in mind that the US is concerned about NK, too.
But you really don’t see a difference between the US and Iran having nukes, do you? I feel for you, I really do.
Most of the world sits by and watchs things like what happens in NK, Sudan, et al. People are a sorry lot and those that are comfy don’t seem to want to do the things necessary to give everyone the chance to be comfy, too.
These would be aliens from the planet Rigel, I assume? Oh, wait a minute. These would be other people on the same planet as them. Again, lines drawn on a map should mean nothing when it comes to helping someone. I don’t know why we are so afraid to cross them because the bad guys don’t hesitate to do so at need.
I’m glad someone painted Hitler into a corner eventually (you did catch my link to the BBC site regarding the interveiw with the prison guard out of NK, did you?).
this is getting further and further from the point, but I’ll play for now.
Sounds good to me.
Calling the cops and personally confronting the burglers are two different things.
You deny that possibility exists?
Why would it be my concern if your house burns down? FWIW I would call the fire dept.
You’re totally missing the point with all these inane comparisons. Iraq is costing us SHITLOADS of money. This isn’t a situation where it costs nothing to intervene (pick up phone call cops, or fire dept), and that is the total difference.
So because I question my country throwing gobs of cash at Iraq, when Americans are in need, I forfeit my right to worry about things that affect the world?
This is just stupid, I don’t even know what you’re rambling about.
This is so moronic I see no point in responding, but I’ll say this. This whole neighbor analogy (besides being totally fucking stupid) is incorrect. Think of it more of a guy getting beat up in a area on the other side town.
You’re so in to helping others? Why don’t you send me some money. I’m serious, my email is in my profile. How about $5,000?
One of the big fuck ups of this war was not sending enough troops. We have a cocky Rurmsfeld to thank for that.
[quote]
Do you seriously think that Americans want people to be tortured? That the typical soldier wants people to be tortured? Barring the occasional fuckasses, I don’t think this is true.
Yes, once troops of other nations are there, all abuse will end. :rolleyes:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4290435.stm
(British solders found guilty of prisoner abuse)
Or they choose to abstain from the very nation building we like to do that ends up being a money pit, and puts us in greater danger. We told many of these countries to shove it at the beginning of this thing, and I think its ludicrous to expect them to come offer assistance at this point. I say good for them, they’re smart enough to stay out Iraq, to bad we weren’t.