[QUOTE=Bytegeist]
You would indeed use “ihr” when addressing a group of people, because that’s the plural second-person. There is no formal or informal choice to make in that case though.
[/quote]
Crap. Looks like I’m wrong in that second sentence. You do use “Sie” for the formal plural second-person (and “ihr” for the informal). Apologies for getting ahead of myself.
Man, I remember hitting this in grade-10 German, looking at the table of the definite article, and thinking, “These people are nuts.”
In German you can choose among seven alternatives to address someone: du, dich, dir, ihr, euch, Sie and Ihnen, in English you say you.
Your choice depends on the answer to a couple of questions:
The objective ones are: *How many Yous are there? What is their grammatical case? *
The subjective questions deal with your (intended) relationship towards the “you”: How well do you now the you? How well do you want to know the you? How well does the you want to know you?
Your addressee will be aware of the connotations of your choice and either accept or correct them.
But that’s not all. We have tremendous regional differences. Rule of thumb: the more to the north you move, the more the “du” will prevail, though you might find interesting amalgams, where a person is called you but is still addressed seemingly formally with Frau or Herr x. The construction is actually not formal at all but it provides the listener with a clue that the relationship is not quite familiar (and not on precisely the same social level in the situation at hand), even though the speakers know each other well.
The choice also depends on the milieu that you visit or are (considered) a part of: students at a university, for example, all use the familiar “du” among each other and towards the doctoral candidates and the PostDocs and everyone else who looks like he won’t have the means to object forcefully or who doesn’t look like the grave is already dug. Excluded are the upper echelon and the older members of the faculty; older – and by that I mean *old *– students, however are called “du”, even though they would never be addressed that informally in other circumstances, removed from the college settings (at least not by anyone with more than marginal manners).
When you meet people in business for the first time, the “Sie” and “Ihnen” is mandatory, and you should never ever say “du” to a secretary, even if you have abandoned the “Sie” with her boss for ages - which happens far more often nowadays than in the past, though more among people of a similar age. If there is a distinct difference in age, the younger one will wait for the older to suggest the “du” in most social situations, unless they are socially far removed from each other. In that case, it’s more polite to continue with the “Sie”.
Under more private circumstances, things can be very easy or so difficult that an ethnologist could dispair.
People of my generation (the thirty-/forty-ish) are usually quick to tell the younger ones to use the “du” and we also tend to be not offended if someone we are not familiar with uses it spontanuously in private or informal situations.
But you can usually tell the social background of the speaker by his or her ability to differentiate the many levels of addressing someone correctly in a given situation.
The female teenage friends of my oldest daughter were readily calling my sister “du”, when she told them to do so, but they were reluctant to address the parents the same way (and they quite often revert to “Sie” when they haven’t seen me for a while and almost always when they ask a favour). The male friends of my son had less trouble to use the “du” with me but were shy towards my wife, and the teenage male friends of my oldest daughter make a point in using the “Sie” while talking to me.
Once the friends are considered adults, the “du” is, of course, an easy alternative and readily used because it shows the willingness of both sides to become familiar and be mutually respectful.
Since my childhood language (English) has no familiarity distinctions in its pronouns, my brain has trouble making them in other languages. Do others have this problem? Speaking French in school, speech was generally directed at teacher so of course I used only “vous”; Parisians found it odd that I called even my girlfriend “vous.” (Later I started imitating Arabs who seem to “tutoyer tout le monde”; that did not go over well with non-Arab Parisians! :smack: )
(Do let’s not discuss Thai which has a plethora of pronouns so confusing that one textbook recommends that foreigners just stick with the generic 1st-person plural (เรา) for all first- and second-persons!)
Japanese also has a wide variety of pronouns, which vary depending on formality versus informality, higher versus lower social status, and gender and age of the speaker.
Do you mean the verb “duzen” = to call each other ‘Du’?
It used to be that instead of just casually offering the ‘Du’ to an acquaintance, you formally drank “Brüderschaft” (lit. Brotherhood) with each other (by linked arms) meaning from now on you were real brothers, or good friends, and therefore close enough to use the ‘Du’.
I presume that’s because Germans, esp. when older than mid-20s, will feel uncomfortable with a ‘forced’ closeness. There’s a wide step between casual “aquaintance or co-worker” and “really good friend you have intimite discussions with”. It seems to me that in US culture, people call very quickly each other “friends”, but then lack further differentation between a true friend, who will steal horses with you, where you can drop in unannounced when the house is in a mess and call at 3 am to help you out of trouble, and the casual friend, where you wear your mask at all times, don’t want to say offensive things that would stress the relationship, and where there is not a lot of trust, just some common hobbys or workplace or similar.
This is often the case with US companies having branches in Germany and wanting to follow the protocol for the US mothership, leading to “my door is always open” and “lets not be stuffy, lets all call each other with first names + Du, because we’re one big family/ team”, both of which will likely be resented by at least a part of the German employees as phony and insincere. (It’s not a big family if part of the people are laid off, or denied bonuses, for example).
People want to keep the distance and not be required to share personal stories with all workmates. But that’s also part of the different attitude towards work: we don’t live to work, but work to live.
As for France, a French friend has told me the “tu” instead of “vous” is becoming more and more frequent.
Yes, it’s a personal relationship with God, and therefore, mirrors the original text, where in the NT, Jesus uses the familiar Aramic term that’s closer to “Daddy/ Dad” than the formal father when praying.
When Martin Luther translated the Bible, he “looked the people on the yap” - he used language that people on the street spoke (and also formed German language by establishing a middle dialect between different extremes). Therefore, he used the familiar “Du” to point out the familiar relationship to God. It also fits with Protestant theology - a personal relationship, instead of the more formal, glorfifying aspect of the Catholic practice.
This depends on the context. University students usually call each other “du”, or they did in Göttingen in the 1970s when I was there.
As for Hitler using “du” to address his generals, this is probably inaccurate, judging by a documentary I watched on ZDF. At least as of 1934, his only “Dutzfreund” was, oddly enough, Ernst Röhm, whose party faction was liquidated that year. Perhaps by the time he started the war he’d become a little more familiar with his associates and direct reports, but I doubt it.
I have had people in Germany – mostly friends of family who were, quite frankly, almost strangers to me – invite me to use “du” out of sheer compassion upon hearing me struggle with the grammar of “Sie.” This is because my “household” German, which I learned from my mom and grandparents is reasonably fluent, whereas my formal German is painfully stilted. This seriously disrupts the flow of conversation!
No, according to Shinna Hitler uses “Sie” to address his generals in the movie. He wanted us to explain why this is so.
Uh, yeah. 
“Can we duz each other from now on?”
I can write it correctly, but as I already have one non-removable mark against me and have been warned numerous times, I’d just as soon poke hot needles into both eyeballs simultaneously.
ETA: Obviously this didn’t mean one was immediately on terms of intimate friendship with the other students, would discuss personal matters, and so on.
? I don’t quite follow you. Who gave you a non-removable mark for writing German correctly, and warned you? And why?