I am aware that many, if not most continental European languages distinguish “formal” and “informal” variants of the 2nd person pronoun. In French it’s vous/tu, in Spanish it’s Usted/tú, in German it’s Sie/du, in Russian it’s vy/ty and in English it used to be you/thou.
My question is, how does an acquaintance switch pronouns? Is it an awkward moment? Does somebody ask the other person to use the pronoun, or is it more of a spontaneous thing?
As I understand it, it’s offered by one party - usually by the person to whom the more formal “you” should be addressed according to the dictates of etiquette. For example, I have an elderly Russian friend in St. Petersburg. He would be the one to suggest my using ‘ty’ when addressing him - but until that point I was bound by manners to use ‘vy’ (as a matter of fact I got chided once when I slipped up). Pretty much the same thing for business relationships - the person in the senior position would be the one to propose the switch. Students, OTOH, generally dispense with the ‘vy’ immediately, if it’s ever used.
Generally, when in doubt, use the formal unless and until suggested otherwise. (I’m assuming here that you’re a young whippersnapper like myself.)
Also depends on the age of speakers. A young child/student would automatically address another person of the same age with “tu” (in French). Also an adult addressing a child would use “tu”. The “vous” starts being used with adults addressing other adults.
The change of “vous” to “tu” between adults can be a matter of delicate negotiations.
Danish for “Why don’t we use the “informal you” from now on ?”
The etiquette is rather simple, as long as there’s a clear difference in standing: The “senior” of two people suggests changing, and the “junior” accepts it. Or rejects it, but that’s a really serious snub. The “formal you” might also be temporarily suspended if a setting makes it ridiculous - I addressed my platoon Sgt. informally when we were both pupils on the same driving course, but never (ever) in ranks.
Still, there’s a clear procedure for changing and it works smoothly.
It only gets awkward when there’s no clear distinction as to who’s senior - one’s a young lady and one’s a (male) professor, say. If you’re in doubt as to who should go through a door first, you’re also in doubt as if to who should make the offer of going to the informal form. In that case, discreet negotiations are in order.
In French and Italian, if you know someone with whom you normally speak in the formal, but you now feel you know well enough to use the informal, you can propose using the informal version. There’s an actual phrase to use – you wouldn’t normally just start all of a sudden talking to someone in the informal if you had previously been using the formal. In French, you’d say, “On peut se tutoyer?” which means “Can we ‘tutoie’ each other?” – in other words, “Can we use the tu and toi forms?” You don’t propose tutoieing to someone just because you talk to them every day – you’d never propose it to the bakery clerk you see every day when you buy your croissant because you don’t have a personal relationship with her. You’d never propose it to your boss; you’d let her propose it to you.
You would know immediately if your “tutoie” suggestion is agreeable to the other party by the expression on his face.
I might be mistaken, but I thought the thou/you distinction was a singular/plural one. However, that doesn’t necessarily preclude it from being a status qualifier as well. For example, in Hindi a singular “you” is “tum,” while a plural you is “aap.” In perhaps a similar manner to English, one uses “aap” when addressing superiors etc, while “tum” is used in a much more familiar sense (in fact, in my Hindi class, we never used “tum”).
“Tutoyer” is an acceptable term in continental French? I never knew that. I always assumed it was a Quebecism. Or are you a Quebecer, missbunny? Not that I have anything against the term, I’ve used it myself. But kind of like “De’panneur”, you know? You don’t realise exactly how Quebecer it is until you go somewhere else and no one knows what the h#!! you’re talking about
This might be in the same manner that a a group of informals becomes a formal; e.g. in French a collection of "Tu"s in French becomes a single “Vous”. I had always thought that “thou” was the familiar:
“Tutoyer” was standard French (i.e. the sort you speak in France) when I was learning the language. German has the verb “duzen”, which means the same - to use the familiar (“du”) form of the pronoun.
“Vous” in French is 2nd person plural, or 2nd person singular formal. German is more elaborate, with 2nd person singular informal (“du”), 2nd person plural informal (“ihr”), and 2nd person singluar or plural formal (“Sie”).
mnemosyne: nope, not from Québec. Do they use tutoyer there too? I heard it all the time (well, not all the time; only when it was appropriate ) in France and as far as I know, it’s standard French (i.e., not colloquial).
The determination as to which party determines the level of ‘formality’ used in the conversation is determined by the person of the higher social rank. That is universal in pretty much every culture that distinguishes between formal and informal.
The real problem comes in Japanese trying to determine who outrankes who…
Situation:
You’re the assistant to the CEO of the company, another CEO’s assistant (a customer) needs to ask you about your boss.
As was explained to me, CEO outranked you (as you are an assistant). Duh
Your CEO vs their CEO. Age has a role, also the fact that they are a customer. However, the respectability of your company and your own social standing within the ‘circle of CEOs’ also plays a role.
You vs the other assistant.
(it gets worse)
Equal, or they are higher… kinda
It depends on who is talking to who about what.
If they talk to you about your boss, you out rank…
on and on and on.
took 4 class hours to explain and we still didn’t understand
Remember to ALWAYS use the informal when insulting someone. I had a friend who said a pretty nasty insult at someone (in Spanish), but used the formal, suggesting that he was addressing his superior. They got a good laugh out of that.
My experience in Spain has been that tú is the default pronoun. I’ve only heard people use usted when addressing someone who is obviously their social superior, not when addressing someone who they simply don’t know very well.
From an etiquette point of view, the nearest situation in English would be where an older person you have known for a while asks you to stop calling him Mr Smith or “sir” and asks you to call him Jack from now on.
I’m not much of a “Continental”. but I speak (Chilean)Spanish…
Some places are more formal than others, but I would say that the switch from “Usted” to “tú” (tutear) or to vos in a few countries (vosear) is roughly similar to switching from a last name to a first name basis.
It is a little incongruous saying “Señor Dominguez, adónde vas (tú)?” or "Enrique, adónde va (Ud.)?
I think that the association made by some Spanish speakers between using the formal mode of address (usted) and the issue of “social superiority” is relevant, but also a little misleading.
My Spanish teachers (one from Madrid, one from Barcelona) made a few points about this issue.
It is generational, with many younger Spaniards using “tu” as the default form of address, while many older people prefer to start with “usted”. Younger people sometimes use “tu” intentionally to make it clear that they do not accord older people any particular deference due to their age. The “generation gap” and intergenerational conflict can rear its head in many different ways!
Use of “usted” does not necessarily imply that you are conceding social superiority to the other person. Rather, it implies a level of formality that is attendant on certain types of relationships, including ones in which social standing is less important than the temporary nature of the relationship. For example, i was told to address waiters, shop assistants etc. using “usted”, because use of “tu” can seem too familiar (to the worker and to the customer). This should not imply that the customer feels socially superior to the worker; only that the customer accords the worker a level of respect and dignity.
These “rules” are flexible, of course, and the type of establishment (five-star restaurant vs. local tapas bar) often determines the level of formality in the mode of address.
There is an important regional difference, in that continental Spanish has an informal verb tense for the second-person plural (known as “vosotros”), and only uses “ustedes” in formal situations. In Latin America (AFAIK) “vosotros” is not used for the second person plural, and “ustedes” is used in all cases, making for a less-than-clear division between formal and informal usage in such cases.
I was interested in Mr Zambezi’s comment:
because i have been told that when criticizing or abusing a stranger (waiter, shop attendant, idiot on the street etc.) one should use the formal (usted) in order to emphasize the fact that one is not being friendly and familiar, but is in contrast keen to maintain a level of social distance. I have not had occasion to test this type of usage, and would be interested to hear other people’s opinions.
In contrast, insulting someone that you know well should be done using the informal “tu”, or so i have been told.
Yep tutoyer is a valid french word. Also, the dutch word meaning the same thing is tutoyeren. A cookie for the first who guesses where that’s derived from
Tu is the equivalent of English ‘thou’; it is scarcely used any more at all, except when addressing God or your intimate lover in love songs. Otherwise, it shows extreme disrespect because of the degree of familiarity. Even parents say the plural tum to their kids.
Hindi/Urdu/Hindustani uses three levels of politeness where these other languages only have two. Âp is the hyper-polite pronoun. It can also be used for a respectful third-person pronoun (though more usually it’s second person). It comes from the Sanskrit word âtman ‘the soul’.
Although tum is a plural, it can feel like a singular, because it’s used with singular verbs and adjectives when speaking to a single person. But it is also used with plural forms. Sometimes, to remove ambiguity, you address a group of people by saying tum lok ‘you people’. Like Southern U.S. “y’all.”
Now, I’m told Javanese distinguishes five or six levels of politeness. I wonder how people keep it straight which pronoun to use with each person they meet, and if you lose face for misjudging the level. It must be tricky trying to gauge your exact level of social distance all the time, especially once society becomes more mobile.