I’ve always understood that the second person familiar plural - ‘vosotros’ - is never used outside Spain. In Latin America, ‘ustedes’ (second person formal plural) is used for both the familiar and formal form of address.
I’ve visited most countries in the continent, and had never ever heard anyone using vosotros, except in religious texts, and sometimes in other written texts when ‘vuestro(s)’ is used to avoid the ambiguity of ‘su(s)’ which can also mean ‘their(s)’.
Now I’m being told that some Latin Americans do use ‘vosotros’ - but I am skeptical.
I know that the archaic Spanish ‘vos’ (second person familiar singular) survives in Central America, Argentina and Uruguay, possibly also in Colombia, but ‘vosotros’?
My travels through Mexico (the only Latin American country I’ve yet been to) have taken me to some 8 or 9 cities. Never heard a vosotros ever. Also worth noting that Americans do not use this plural either. Only in the South do they try, clipping the “you all” to “y’all” and proving, despite my biases, that they have a special hold on English in general. Ask Shakespeare scholars about this too. They’ll back it up.
(nitpicky/question: I believe the OP says " 'ustedes (2nd person formal plural)" when, in reality, it is really the 3rd person formal/3rd person familiar. Thoughts? )
I’m pretty sure I’m right and the other person is wrong, but I need to hear it from people who know Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay and Bolivia - these are the Spanish-speaking Latin American countries I haven’t been to and I can’t make such forceful claims for them.
3rd person in Spanish is el/ella and there is no distinction between familiar and formal. Ustedes is the plural of usted - you (formal). ‘You all’ said very politely
Martha (re: ustedes): Hmm…that’s right. I feel a bit silly now. Usted, though, is conjugated as an el/ella verb though, right? That’s what confused me a little. I’ve forgotten a lot of my formal Spanish lately.
Etmiller: True, true. I’m always surprised that we don’t have a more proper word for the second person plural. I favor “y’all” over “you guys,” personally. Plus, the gender-specificity makes that one a little less usable, although, personally, that doesn’t bother me much. I guess we’ve always got “ladies & gentlemen.”
In El Salvador I had to learn to conjugate the “Vosotros” in grammar school, and that was as far as I ever used that second person.
It was AFAICR useful only to read old spanish texts like “El Quijote”.
More interesting to note is that some writings on the subjet of “vosotros” mentioned that even in Spain the use of this second person is falling in favor of the “Ustedes” any confirmation on that?
In the south of Spain ‘vosotros’ is not always used. As in Latin America ‘ustedes’ covers both the formal and informal forms. My impression - but I could be wrong - is that the opposite of what you say is happening: ‘vosotros’ is becoming more common in the south as well, possibly because of exposure to Madrid-based media.
I’d be interested in seeing the writings you mention.
Vosotros is used in Argentina, Uruguay, and Paraguay, and she thinks Chile as well. She points out it’s also used in very formal speech or writing, such as what you might use in writing to the Minister of Foreign Affairs. In the Dominican Republic, it’s used in very formal speech; former President Balaguer was known for using it.
Thanks Bricker. That confirms what this person is saying about his friend from Uruguay.
I am surprised to hear about Argentina and Chile, though. I know lots of people from those countries and have never known them to use ‘vosotros’ in speech, in writing, formally or informally.
‘Vos’ (archaic Spanish form of the second person singular, informal, used in Argentina and Uruguay, along with parts of Central America) yes. ‘Vosotros’, never.
It is also strange to discover that it is (or was, as in the case of the late Balaguer) used in formal speech or writing - seeing as it is the informal form of address as opposed to the formal ‘ustedes’.
I guess it depends on the people one hangs around, formally speaking, the vosotros will be used, but I did a quick search and Argentinian forums and visitors to Argentina report the vosotros is not commonly used:
What? Is this totally the opposite of what every Spanish speaker in the world would expect? Ustedes is the “normal” formal form, and vosotros is the impolite form. It’s in the Bible for “you all” and I see it in Spain-Spanish writing as “you all” and if I were going to speak to the King and Queen of Argentina, I’d be sure to call 'em ustedes rather than vosotros.
Am I missing something fundamental in Mrs. Bricker’s explanation?
Certainly not everywhere. Even in Cádiz, and it’s hard to get much further south than that in Spain, I heard it constantly. In fact, I got corrected if I didn’t use it. (Same way with the letters “ce” and “ceta”, they used the “th” sound - even though I’ve always been taught that it’s not used much in Andalusia.)
Yes. You’re conflating two things. “Usted” is more formal, or more polite - more deferential, more respectful. And “tú”, the opposite. But that refers in part to your feelings about the person you’re speaking with.
You’re conflating it with the idea of register, which refers to how formally you’re speaking. In English, in more formal registers, we use more Latinate words, we don’t use “ain’t” or end sentences with prepositions, and (at least in very formal settings) we’re less likely to directly address the person we’re speaking with, and of course we use a lot more old-fashioned language (thus the floweriness and archaic language used in official ceremonies).
In formal Spanish, you’ll find similarly old-fashioned usages in very formal registers, including the otherwise obsolete (in Latin America) “vosotros”. That doesn’t mean it’s being used as a mark of politeness - it would be used with people that one is addressing using the less deferential tone but while speaking formally. That’s why it shows up in church.
And because I’m not really going to get another chance to hijack a thread about the word vosotros, can anyone confirm that the English cognate “bozos” means “you all (semi-impolite)”?
When I was in vacation in Chile last year, I never noticed anyone saying “vostoros”. However, most of my communication in Spanish was in restaurants and hotels and it’s more likely that they would have been formal with me.
Also, I was the only one in my party who spoke Spanish, so the Chileans spoke to me directly.
1st person sing: I yo
2nd p. sing: you tu
he el
3rd p. sing: she ella
it usted
1st p. plural: we nosotros (-as)
2nd p. pl: you vosotros (-as)
ellos
3rd p. pl: they ellas
ustedes
Now, as I’m sure you know, Spanish speakers tend to drop the pronoun whenever the meaning is clear from context. This is one reason subjunctive is alive and well (to the frustration of Spanish students around the world). Many times, the pronoun is added for emphasism, e.g. Yo, me voy - I’m really going, as opposed to, I’m going.
That you don’t hear vosotros all that much, even in Spain, is because it’s implied from the current verb: ¿Os vais? - Are you (guys) going? In spain, vosotro -as is colloquial and not formal at all. Usted - es is the polite form of addressing someone: Whenever an American would revert to Sir or M’am, usted is the word of choice.
One confusion might come from the English use of you and you, as in “Hey you!” and “Are you happy with your meal, M’am?”
I don’t think that follows. Null subjects are common in languages with strong verb systems, like Spanish. French may be used as a comparison: through the language’s evolution, verb endings have taken a long step towards total disappearance. As a result, subject pronouns are required in French sentences. It’s the verbal system that leads to null subjects, not the other way around. (And I don’t see the connection to the subjunctive at all.)
The question is about the disappearance of the entire second person plural in Latin American Spanish. In normal use at least, the entire thing is gone - pronoun, corresponding verb forms, and so on. We’re not just talking about pronoun-dropping. ¿Os vais? doesn’t exist in normal speech registers in Latin America.
Some older people in Colombia say “Vuestra Merced,” or something like that.
English Bibles have thou, thee, and thy/thine. (BTW, English used to have ye, similar to vosotros.)
And I’ve heard Central American parents, when talking to their children, switch from vos to usted in the same conversation. I think they say usted to be more stern, like when the kid is misbehaving.
